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phiblack

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Top Turret / Flight Engineer training - 08/21/2008 07:39:41 PM
I am trying to find some details on what training a member would receive to become a Top Turret gunner / Flight Engineer on a B17 during WW2.

From the day he enlisted til the day he climbed into the top turret, what was involved?

For example:

Basic training - x weeks,
Gunnery training - x weeks (promoted to PFC)
Mechanical school - x weeks (promoted to CPL)

I hope this makes some sense!

Many thanks in advance.

Phil
Australia
joeamiller

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Re:Top Turret / Flight Engineer training - 08/22/2008 04:58:39 AM
I don't know about B-17, but My dad was a gunner on a B-29 and these are the schools he went to: 

Gulfport Mississppi             AP & Eng Mech 16 weeks - Jan  - Mar 1943
Chanute Illinois                 Elect. Spec       7 weeks
Boeing Fld, Washington      AP & Eng Mech  10 weeks - Aug 1943 Lowry Fld. Colorado            Armor              4 weeks
Dog_Driver

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Re:Top Turret / Flight Engineer training - 08/22/2008 11:33:21 AM
There is a great training film/documentary out there about the training for top turret gunners.  Burgess Merideth (aka "The Penguin" from the Batman TV series and "Mickey" from Rocky I-IV) is the gunner they follow.  It is very interesting.  I'll have to check my DVDs for the exact title.  I think I bought it through ****'s website or I got in in a collection of WWII DVDs from Costco.
Doug Beckstead
Historian
Anchorage, Alaska
Yunch

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Re:Top Turret / Flight Engineer training - 08/22/2008 12:06:32 PM
Phil,
There is ONE gentleman on this forum that can give you a an intelligent answer to your query. Jim Peters our resident expert on B-17s, a former B-17 flight engineer in WWII in the 15th AAF. Jim may be on vacation. I have not seen his name on this forum for awhile nor have recieved any e-mail from him. He should be back in a week or so. His reply will be FIRST HAND INFO. 
Fair Winds and following seas.
John, (GM 3/C USS Frost DE 144)

Kin to LT. John W. Farnkopf
15th AAF, 52 FG, 4th FS; Madna, Italy
MIA 11/11/44 remains found 12/8/53
phiblack

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Re:Top Turret / Flight Engineer training - 08/22/2008 11:22:56 PM
Thanks Doug.
It sounds like a great DVD to get hold of to assist in getting a feel for the training the subject of my research went through.

Phil
phiblack

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Re:Top Turret / Flight Engineer training - 08/22/2008 11:24:20 PM
Thanks John,

Hopefully he will be back before long - I am sure his answer will be top rate.

Phil
Yunch

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Re:Top Turret / Flight Engineer training - 08/23/2008 05:47:07 AM
Phil,
I know Jim answered the same question on a number of occasions. If you have time this weekend, go back through the heavy bomber pages and see if you can find it before your eyes tire of the searching. If I get a chance I will look.

Good Luck
<message edited by Yunch on 08/23/2008 12:30:58 PM >
Fair Winds and following seas.
John, (GM 3/C USS Frost DE 144)

Kin to LT. John W. Farnkopf
15th AAF, 52 FG, 4th FS; Madna, Italy
MIA 11/11/44 remains found 12/8/53
Bob Gilbert

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Re:Top Turret / Flight Engineer training - 08/23/2008 10:53:29 AM
Phil,
Have you tried the Forum SEARCH function on this web site?  Check by subject or check Jim Peters posts. 
Bob Gilbert
Ball Turret Gunner, Goldin crew
381st Bomb Gp., 533rd Bomb Sq.
US 8th Air Force
phiblack

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Re:Top Turret / Flight Engineer training - 08/23/2008 07:30:36 PM
All,  many thanks for the replies.  A search on the site did indeed answer most of my questions (note to self  - do this first next time!)  As usual the knowledge of forum members is outstanding!!

Good health.

Phil Blackwell
Australia
phiblack

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Re:Top Turret / Flight Engineer training - 08/23/2008 07:38:41 PM
Dog_Driver


There is a great training film/documentary out there about the training for top turret gunners.  Burgess Merideth (aka "The Penguin" from the Batman TV series and "Mickey" from Rocky I-IV) is the gunner they follow.  It is very interesting.  I'll have to check my DVDs for the exact title.  I think I bought it through ****'s website or I got in in a collection of WWII DVDs from Costco.


Had a quick google search and I think the DVD you refer to is:

The Rear Gunner(1943, B&W, 24:00) StarringLt. Ronald Reagan and Lt. Burgess Meredith, follows "PeeWee" Williamsthrough gunnery school and into battle in this vintage WWII informationfilm produced for the Army Air Corps. A seldom seen look inside anactual World War II bomber gunnery school featuring a wide variety ofmethods for increasing shooting accuracy and weapons proficiency.
Yunch

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Re:Top Turret / Flight Engineer training - 09/07/2008 07:33:00 PM
Phil,
Jim Peters is back, if you wish tp pose your top turret/flight engineer question to him again.
Fair Winds and following seas.
John, (GM 3/C USS Frost DE 144)

Kin to LT. John W. Farnkopf
15th AAF, 52 FG, 4th FS; Madna, Italy
MIA 11/11/44 remains found 12/8/53
jpeters140

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Re:Top Turret / Flight Engineer training - 09/11/2008 02:41:14 AM
Phillip :

I was drafted..from the middle of my second quarter at Ohio State University in Columbus Ohio. I reported to Fort Hayes Ohio,also in Columbus Ohio.

My basic training was at Fort McClellan,Alabama....and was in the Infantry.   (13 weeks)
I was then selected for the Army Specialized Training Program (ASTP) and was sent to Auburn, Alabama,for further processing, and assignment to a school.  It turned out, it was at Boston University, Boston MAssachusetts, our transportation was by train along the east coast where at night all the windows of the passenger cars, had blinds pulled facing the Atlantic Ocean...oil tankers were being sunk by German submarines where they were outlined against the lights of the cities on shore.

I did not have enough Physics in high school and so was among the first group to be dropped from the program.

I was then given the choice of further electing the branch of service, and at that point, six of us asked for and received a transfer to the USAAF.
Next stop was Greenboro, North Carolina, which was a USAAF Basic Training Center for further tests and assignment.
Next stop was Amarillo Texas for a 6 months course in Aircraft and Engine Mechanic course. (B-17)
On completion of the A& E school, my next assignent was to Kingman Arizona, for Flexible Gunnery  Traiining School (6 weeks). Rank of Corporal on completion. (6 weeks)
I was granted a 30 day leave, and after the leave, was to report to Lincoln Nebraska for assignment to an aircrew.
Next stop was Sioux City, Iowa, B-17 training for Combat Crew Training..6 weeks where we flew cross country and at night.
Next stop was back to Lincoln for overseas assignment. If we were issued 2 blankets, we were to go by ship to our overseas destination, and a sleeping bag if we were to deliver a new B-17 to our overseas destination.
I was issued the blankets, but was informed that our crew was no 3 on the list to take an aircraft, if any crew selected to take an aircraft was removed from the list, because a crew member, having to enter a hospital...appendicitis, etc..that crew wouild be scratched and a subsitute crew would be assigned. Two days later we turned in our blankets and exchanged them for a sleeping bag. We were then assigned a new B-17 with a total of 10 hours flying time. After checking out the B-17, (pilot and crew checking out the aircraft systems, we were then given an assignment to proceed to Grenier Field ,New Hamshire.
We then were further processed where our crew recieved a wool OD sweater donated by the Red Cross Ladies.
The pilot was given sealed orders to be opened after we left the continental U.S. with our final destination and assignment to the unit we were to fly combat with.
We proceeded to Goose Bay Lbdr, and learned enroute, were assigned to the 99th BG in the 15th AAF in Italy. Our stops were
Meeks Field Iceland; Valley,Wales;Marakech Morrocco, Tunis, Tunisia, and finally Gioia del Colle, Italy where we left the B-17 and proceeded by army 6X6 to Foggia, Italy where the 99th BG was based.
I flew as Corporal for the first 5 misssions, where the enlisted crewmembers were promoted to Sergeant...next 10 missions saw promotion to S/Sgt.

 The Radio operator and myself as Flight Engineer, were promoted after the next 10 missions to Technical Sergeant, sd both of us had the 6 months training, whereas the other gunners had the six WEEKs course in gunnery..we had an armorer assigned who normally flew left waist, but also acted as a togglier.

As the flight engineer, I was designated  the NCOIC of the other gunners.

(This may be more information than you asked for).

Jim :-)
James S. Peters Sr. T/Sgt
B-17 Flt Engr, 27 missions
99 BG, 348BS, 5th Wing, 15th AAF
Tortorella, (Foggia#2), Italy
My Tour was from 12/03/44-06/19/45
M/Sgt USAF (Retired)
phiblack

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Re:Top Turret / Flight Engineer training - 09/12/2008 07:07:34 PM
Jim,

Thankyou for taking the time to respond to my query.
In one response I have managed to find all the information I have been seeking.  In particular, the number of missions required for promotion from corporal to TSGT.

Now I shall be able to put together a narrative to accompany Charles Blackwell's medal.

A colonial cousin truly appreciates you assistance!

Phil Blackwell
Australia
jpeters140

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Re:Top Turret / Flight Engineer training - 09/12/2008 07:44:48 PM
Phillip...Please keep in mind that the missions necessary for the award of the Air Medal varied with the theater. ...My Air Medal and subsequent awards were for the 15th AAF....I understand some of the Cargo flight crews had to have as many as 70 missions or so, to qualify for the FIRST award.

You will have to query someone from the 8th AAF for their answer.

Jim :-)
James S. Peters Sr. T/Sgt
B-17 Flt Engr, 27 missions
99 BG, 348BS, 5th Wing, 15th AAF
Tortorella, (Foggia#2), Italy
My Tour was from 12/03/44-06/19/45
M/Sgt USAF (Retired)

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