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The Focke - Wulf190 vs the P-47 and P-51 . How did they match up in combat ?

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drummerboy
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2012/02/09 19:14:29 (permalink)
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The Focke - Wulf190 vs the P-47 and P-51 . How did they match up in combat ?

The Focke Wulf 190A  a single seat , single engine  fighter designed by Kurt Turk the and first flew on June 1,1939. This aiircraft ferociously fast and maneuverable against Allied fighters  and  was superior to the RAFs main line fighter the Spitfire -Mk V. Used in a variety of  roles It was nicknamed " Butcher Bird ", because of its FIERCE ARMANENT. The Fw 190s wide landing gear , excellent cockpit visibility and High Altitude padded bladed propellers endeared it to its pilots familiar with the shortcomings of its predecessor the Messerschmitt Bf -109 .It was used in a variety of roles , ranging from a reliable ground attack aircraft , to a bomber  escort and  even used as a night fighter . Some of the Luftwaffes most famous fighter Aces flew the Fw-190. .Many variants were produced during the war . The most notable was the In Line engine equipped  and loner nose  190D known as the  " Dora ."  Early in the war  the P-47  was the Primary attack fighter , and bomber  escort aircraft  until it was replaced  by the P-51 . In  comparing their combat engagments against the Fw-190 , Which aircraft  matched  up better? The P-47 or the P-51 ?

 
post edited by drummerboy - 2012/02/10 00:28:16

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    billrunnels
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    Re:The Focke - Wulf190 vs the P-47 and P-51 . How did they match up in 2012/02/09 20:56:24 (permalink)
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    The following is taken from the official 1943 War Department "Recognition Pictorial Manual":
     
    FW 190A-3
          Max. speed - 395 m.p.h at 17,000 ft   
          Service ceiling - 36,000 ft.
    P-47D
          Max. speed - 0ver 390 m.p.h.
          Service ceiling - 38,000 ft.
    .Spitfire V
          Max. speed - 375 m.p.h. at 20,250 ft.
          Service ceiling - 37,700 ft.
    P-51
          Max. speed - 390 m.p.h.
          Service ceiling = 30,000 ft.
     
    You be the judge.
     
     

    Bill Runnels
    Bombardier(B-17)
    8TH Air Force
    HELL'S ANGELS
    303RDBG, 360THBS
    http://www.303rdbg.com/runnels-memories.html
    drgondog
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    Re:The Focke - Wulf190 vs the P-47 and P-51 . How did they match up in 2012/02/27 17:32:39 (permalink)
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    Bill - I wonder why you chose the Allison version P-51 and such a low speed for the P-47D.  E.g, -
    The 51B w/1650-7 booked along at
    441mph at 24.9K 
    410mph at 18K
    364mph at SL. 
    The climb rate was
    3920fpm at SL
    3250 at 18K
    2400fpm at 25K. 
    1200fpm at 32K
    Service Ceiling 41,000 feet
    All numbers for 67"/3000rpm/full combat load with racks but no external fuel for the weights.  The 51D-15 in same config and power was slightly faster at SL and slightly slower climb rate. Add approximately 10mph when you take the bomb racks off and get a comparable comparison versus the FW190A-8 below.

    The FW 190A-8 tested 10/44 at 1.63 ata and no external racks but full load otherwise.
    Comparable Speeds - max
    350mph at SL (14mph slower)
    405mph at 18K - dropping off above that altitude (5mph slower)
    390mph at 25K - (51 mph slower)
    Climb
    3500fpm at SL (420fpm slower)
    2400fpm at 18K (850fpm slower) 
    1900fpm at 25K (500fpm slower)
    400fpm at 32K (800fpm slower)
    Celing 36,000 feet (5,000 feet lower) 
    http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/fw190/fw190a8.html
    http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/mustang/mustangtest.html
    You can peruse through the site and get what you want - note that I didn't use 75" (44-1 150 Octane) available six months before the A-8 tests at high ata (boost) for comparison - otherwise the Mustang performance was even better in cmparison.
     
    The P-47-25 through P-47M also have far better performance than the figures you used above when compared to the Fw-190A-8. Only the FW 190D-9 is close and it didn't enter combat until very late November/mid December in small numbers when the P-51B and D with 75" boost as well as P-47M outperformed it - without having to deal with buggy aircraft..

    .Regards,
    Bill
     
    post edited by drgondog - 2012/02/27 17:55:10
    billrunnels
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    Re:The Focke - Wulf190 vs the P-47 and P-51 . How did they match up in 2012/02/27 19:36:36 (permalink)
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    The information I quoted is what we trained on in Pre-flight aircraft identification. I still have my personal copy of the manual showing silhouette (nose, belly and side) views of all aircraft in the U.S.A  Army & Navy, U.K., Reich, Japan, Italy and the USSR. The manual was dated June 1943. The identification training was intense and when finished with the class the speed with which identification was required prevented even a blink of the eyes or you would miss a slide projected on the screen. We also carried the manual on missions etc.
    post edited by billrunnels - 2012/02/27 20:19:56

    Bill Runnels
    Bombardier(B-17)
    8TH Air Force
    HELL'S ANGELS
    303RDBG, 360THBS
    http://www.303rdbg.com/runnels-memories.html
    drgondog
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    Re:The Focke - Wulf190 vs the P-47 and P-51 . How did they match up in 2012/02/28 06:57:38 (permalink)
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    Bill - I have no doubt of the authenticity of the information.  Your date of June 1943 place the Mustang performance (Allison engine) as well as the P-47B and times the FW 190A-3 about a year earlier.
     
    My only point is that a.) while interesting to compare those data to illustrate general capabilities of early versions of all the aircraft, it has no bearing on relative capabilities except in the MTO in late 1942, early 1943, and b.) the big battles between the FW 190A-7, P-47D-11 (Water Injection/padle prop) and P-51B (1650 Packard Merlin) over control of the air over Germany in the ETO started in late 1943 with much better USAAF capability, particularly above 25,000 feet (Where You were flying).
     
    It is the latter two aircraft and subsequent upgrades that broke the back of the LW, with the P-51B/C/D taking on the major load for all deep target escort for 8th AF. 
    billrunnels
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    Re:The Focke - Wulf190 vs the P-47 and P-51 . How did they match up in 2012/02/28 10:20:06 (permalink)
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    Tell me about it. I was there and witnessed the capabilities of the P-51 fighter support of the bomber stream. In my opinion, the P-51, and those who flew them, changed the complexion of the war in the ETO.. Their escort service was the very best! The only problem they had was the pilot never knew where he was when it came time to abandon the escort and return to his home base. One of them would come in very close and say: "Little brother to big brother, give me a course home". He then would flap his wings a time or two and break away. To make a long story short, they saved the day for us.

    Bill Runnels
    Bombardier(B-17)
    8TH Air Force
    HELL'S ANGELS
    303RDBG, 360THBS
    http://www.303rdbg.com/runnels-memories.html
    drgondog
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    Re:The Focke - Wulf190 vs the P-47 and P-51 . How did they match up in 2012/02/28 12:37:12 (permalink)
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    Interesting how different leaders tried to solve. My father was first 354FS CO, the 355th FG Deputy CO.  He had 2200 hours in training command before escaping to ETO and probably 250 of that was B-26.  In short he was a much better instrument pilot and navigator than the average fresh pilot out of Advanced,
     
    First in the Squadron he set up mandatory extra time in the Link, then performed check rides in the Base Hack AT-6.  They instituted the policy across the squadrons after he moved to 355HQ.  When the Scouts came to Steeple Morden, he didn't need to train the ex-bomber pilots how to navigate or fly in bad weather but he took all of them in check rides in the AT-6 to make sure they would handle the Mustang with less transition time.
     
    He was on his second tour when you started Ops with the 303rd... Thank you for your service.
     
    Regards,
    Bill Marshall
    President 355th FG/FW Association - three generations of Republic (plus P-51) and going strong with the A-10.
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