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Helpful ReplySquadron Insignia Search

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Bob Watkins
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2009/05/14 16:48:15 (permalink)
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Squadron Insignia Search

I'm trying to locate a photograph or printed material that shows the insignia of the
28th Bomb Squadron as displayed by that unit during WWII.

I have been told that the WWII era design differed from the original insignia that
was developed when this unit was designated the 28th Aero Squadron in WWI.

Any help in this matter will be greatly appreciated.
Bob

jpeters140
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Re:Squadron Insignia Search 2009/05/14 19:33:24 (permalink)
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Bob...Excerpt from   Maurer-Maurer,( Squadrons of the Air Force WW II ) the 28th Bombardment Squadron shows :

Emblem

A Mohawk Indian head in profile with a scalp lock,single feather and wampum necklace,above the head a blue diamond (approved 14 February 1924 from a WW I emblem.)

The two Maurer-Maurer books can be found on line.

One is the Units book and the other is the Squadrons book.
The units book goes through 1945 and the Squadron book goes to 1963, with several squadrons changed by, mainly SAC. (Strategic Air Command)

Jim :-)

James S. Peters Sr. T/Sgt B-17 Flt Engr, 27 missions 99 BG, 348BS, 5th Wing, 15th AAF Tortorella, (Foggia#2), Italy My Tour was from 12/03/44-06/19/45 M/Sgt USAF (Retired)
garyg
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Re:Squadron Insignia Search 2009/05/14 20:33:41 (permalink) ☄ Helpful
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Bob,
 
I have a scan of the WWII version of the 28th BS insignia on my website at http://www.cbi-history.com/part_ic.html#243.  It's the 2nd one, top row of insignia.
 
Bob Watkins
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Re:Squadron Insignia Search 2009/05/15 10:34:18 (permalink)
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jpeters140

Bob...Excerpt from   Maurer-Maurer,( Squadrons of the Air Force WW II ) the 28th Bombardment Squadron shows :

Emblem

A Mohawk Indian head in profile with a scalp lock,single feather and wampum necklace,above the head a blue diamond (approved 14 February 1924 from a WW I emblem.)

The two Maurer-Maurer books can be found on line.

One is the Units book and the other is the Squadrons book.
The units book goes through 1945 and the Squadron book goes to 1963, with several squadrons changed by, mainly SAC. (Strategic Air Command)

Jim :-)


Jim,

The problem I've have with Maurer's works are;

a.] They do not always accurately depict the designs actually
     displayed by many of the units during the war.
b.] The inclusion of far too many post war designs.
c.] The exclusion of unofficial group/squadron insignia.

and finally...
d.] The use of black & white images to depict color images.

That being said, I hasten to add that both of Maurer's works
on the subject of AAF insignia have nevertheless made an invaluable
contribution to preserving the history of this often neglected subject.

Bob



Bob Watkins
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Re:Squadron Insignia Search 2009/05/15 11:04:53 (permalink)
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Gary,

The top two left images on your web-site represent the issue under scrutiny.

The first of these designs is indeed representative of the original WWII insignia
for the 28th Aero Squadron and does in fact fit the official description on file in
the AF historical records.

The second design (as also depicted in Maurer's Combat Squadrons book) bears
little resemblance to the original design nor the official written description. The image
as presented looks more like road kill than a the original Mohawk Indian.

This is why I'm trying to locate visual evidence to either validate or repudiate various veteran
statements claiming that the original WWI design was their actual insignia during WWII.

If you come across any printed piece or period photo showing the insignia of the 28th Bomb
Squadron I would appreciate your getting in touch with me.

Bob

garyg
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Re:Squadron Insignia Search 2009/05/15 11:07:51 (permalink)
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Bob,
 
Love the "road kill" comparison!    That's actually a scan of an actual patch, believe it not.  I'll contact the guy who sent it to me to see if he has any info on it as well as any other documentation/photos re. the authenticity of the patch.
 
Bob Watkins
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Re:Squadron Insignia Search 2009/05/15 11:48:46 (permalink)
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Much obliged Gary.

Anything you can come up with that might help
resolve this matter will be appreciated.

Bob

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Re:Squadron Insignia Search & various Indian Heads 2009/05/15 13:10:00 (permalink)
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Some trivia on the first emblem in Gary's various versions of the 28th's indian head.  This appears to be the aeroplane marking approved by the AEF on 18 Nov 1918 for the 28th Aero Squadron (Pursuit).  All the squadrons in the 3rd Pursuit Group used different indian heads as their emblems.  The 93rd Aero Squadron's was approved fairly much in its original form in 1942 for its successor, the 93rd Bomb Sq (although the 1942 approval doesn't identify its tribe.), the 213th Aero Squadron has not been active since WW I.
The emblems were patterned after the Sioux head of the 103rd Aero Squadron, around which the group was formed.  The 103rd drew its personnel and equipment from Esc. N.124 (later Esc. Spa.124), the Escadrille Lafayette, as well as the escadrille's emblem.  The 94th Fighter Squadron is the successor to the 103rd.  Eddie Rickenbaker copyrighted the aeroplane marking for the 94th's other predecessor, the 94th Aero Squadron as a trademark for Rickenbaker Autos, and between WW I and WW II, the 94th Pursuit Squadron used the Sioux head on a white arrowhead.  Rickenbaker gave up the copyright and the 94th reverted to the hat in the ring insignia in 1942.  A French fighter squadron descended from Esc. N.124 was still using the Sioux Head emblem into the 1960s.

Bernie Shearon
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Bob Watkins
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Re:Squadron Insignia Search & various Indian Heads 2009/05/15 14:20:05 (permalink)
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Bernie,

Thanks for this interesting background material.

I don't think of this type of information as 'trivia'
however, but rather as 'micro-histories'.

Bob

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Re:Squadron Insignia Search & various Indian Heads 2009/05/15 17:47:50 (permalink)
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Bob,
 
According to my source the "roadkill" version (as shown in Maurer) was the "official" WWII version.  I accept his answer as he's one of the leading sources at usafpatches.com, has supplied me w/ a good majority of the scans for my site, and collects insignia from WWII on.  Hope this helps...
 
Bob Watkins
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Re:Squadron Insignia Search & various Indian Heads 2009/05/15 18:33:10 (permalink)
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Gary,

To be on the safe side, I believe that I'll have to include both WWI & WWII
versions in my next book, that is unless I can come up with some sort of
empirical evidence one way or another regarding this design.

Keep me in mind if you happen to come across an old wartime photo
showing the use actual use/application of this insignia.

Thanks again for your input and follow-up in this matter.

Bob

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Re:Squadron Insignia Search & various Indian Heads 2009/05/16 13:03:49 (permalink) ☄ Helpful
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Bob,
 
I think I'd do the same.  I've been doing some searching online and in books here at home for photos of the 28th that may show the insignia "in use".  No joy.  I did find a photo of the unit in Korea that showed the round version (not the "road kill" version).  Wouldn't be surprised if both were used during the war.
 
Cheers!
 
Bob Watkins
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Re:Squadron Insignia Search & various Indian Heads 2009/05/16 13:37:09 (permalink)
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'Great Minds Think Alike'

I appreciate your feedback on this Gary, and good hunting.

Blue skies,
Bob

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Re:Squadron Insignia Search 2009/05/16 16:19:38 (permalink)
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skybear45

jpeters140

Bob...Excerpt from   Maurer-Maurer,( Squadrons of the Air Force WW II ) the 28th Bombardment Squadron shows :

Emblem

A Mohawk Indian head in profile with a scalp lock,single feather and wampum necklace,above the head a blue diamond (approved 14 February 1924 from a WW I emblem.)

The two Maurer-Maurer books can be found on line.

One is the Units book and the other is the Squadrons book.
The units book goes through 1945 and the Squadron book goes to 1963, with several squadrons changed by, mainly SAC. (Strategic Air Command)

Jim :-)


Jim,

The problem I've have with Maurer's works are;

a.] They do not always accurately depict the designs actually
    displayed by many of the units during the war.
b.] The inclusion of far too many post war designs.
c.] The exclusion of unofficial group/squadron insignia.

and finally...
d.] The use of black & white images to depict color images.

That being said, I hasten to add that both of Maurer's works
on the subject of AAF insignia have nevertheless made an invaluable
contribution to preserving the history of this often neglected subject.

Bob


 
Bob....Where the insignia shows as approved....the colors are described...unfortunatlely in an artist's description or language that is incomprehensible to the average person.
 
An artist schooled in that description would be able to accurately reproduce the insignia.
 
Jim  :-)


James S. Peters Sr. T/Sgt B-17 Flt Engr, 27 missions 99 BG, 348BS, 5th Wing, 15th AAF Tortorella, (Foggia#2), Italy My Tour was from 12/03/44-06/19/45 M/Sgt USAF (Retired)
Bob Watkins
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Re:Squadron Insignia Search 2009/05/16 16:41:55 (permalink)
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Jim,

I don't have any problem interpreting the written heraldic description
for this unit.

The problem lies in the fact that I have received a number of comments
over the years by veterans to the effect that it was the original WWI
design, and not the Maurer image, that was displayed by the 28thBS
during the war.

I was just hoping to find final clarification in the matter.

Bob

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