soalebm
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RAF marked B-24 Photo
I am looking for photos of RAF marked B-24s operating in Italy or North Africa. I would really like to see a SAAF or Polish B-24 but any RAF, RAAF, Polish, etc, will be great!!!
Thanks!
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buckeyeuk
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Brandon this is a typical SAAF Liberator VI ( B-24J) from 31 Sqn. SAAF at Celone , Italy in 1944; I believe the serial is KG967 which would be 44-10472, lost 30 Sept. 1944. These are standard colours for 31 and the other SAAF sqn. no. 34; they retained the AAF Olive Drab-Neutral Gray with US serials painted out. Aircraft letters were white or Dull Red, no squadron codes (though some RAF Liberators in N. Africa had them). On some SA aircraft including Libs, the red in the insignia was replaced by SAAF orange. It was common (as here apparently) for crews to include British or other Commonwealth personnel (note the various headgear). The 2 squadrons were in 2 SAAF Wing under 205 Group RAF in Italy alongside Fifteenth units. RAF Libs in the Group had similar markings . The only Polish squadron to fly Liberators in this theatre was 301; in Nov. 1944 no. 1586 (Special Duties ) Flight was re-numbered as 301 (Polish) Sqn. RAF at Brindisi with a mix of Libs and Halifaxes; the former 301 had served in the UK . Polish squadrons within the RAF were numbered from 300 - 309 and 315-318. In Aug.-Sept. 1944 the SAAF and RAF Liberators were supplying the Poles in Warsaw at some cost. Nick
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soalebm
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Wow thanks Nick thats exactly the type of photo I'm looking for! I have been working on a research project about the 15th AF for 3 years and I am currently writing about the N0. 205 RAF group. I'm writing about the SAAF polish supply missions right now. Where is this photo from? I would like to include it in my research and I would like to credit it. Is it yours?
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melherman
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Hi Brandon The photo of the SAAF Liberator with ground crew appears in Lawrence Isemonger's book "The Men Who Went to Warsaw" - the story of 31 and 34 Sqns SAAF. The young man on the extreme right of the photo (Colin Trader) lives in Port Elizabeth, South Africa (as do I) and I know it was his copy of the photo that was used by Isemonger for the book. I have two more photos of SAAF Libs which I am posting here. I am thrilled to know that there is some research being done into 205 Group's work in Italy, particularly from an American perspective. Have you read Maurice Lihou's book "It's Dicey Flying Wimpys Around Italian Skies"? It is also about 205 Group RAF. I will send you a PM regarding any other ways we may help each other - I have been researching my uncle (flew with 34 Sqn SAAF) for the past 6 years. regards Melanie Herman
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soalebm
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Thank you melanie
I asked the Imperial War Museum about the photo and they couldn't give me any information. I emailed several SAAF sources and no one could give me any info. I really appriciate you letting me know and posting these photos. I have not read Lihou's book yet but several people have suggested it to me recently so I'll have to find a copy. Is the second photo yours?
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melherman
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Hi Brandon Glad you found the info useful! The second photo was lent to me to copy by another Port Elizabeth veteran who was a pilot with 34 Sqn in Italy - Issie Noach, who died 5 years ago, aged 91. I too am awaiting my copy of "It's Dicey flying Wimpys". I found a copy online, but delivery has been delayed by the Icelandic ash cloud (ironic or what??!!!) The other book (The Men who went to Warsaw) is available from the publisher, Winston Brent ( afmil@global.co.za). All the best Melanie
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Steve_Fossey
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This is a little bit of a tangent from this thread but Melanie or some others following this thread might have an answer. Was there any interaction between the South Africans and Americans at Celone Field? There was some mention of sharing the field by folks with the 463rd but no mention of interacting that I know of. The South Africans were on the night shift while the Americans had the day shift so maybe there just wasn't that much opportunity.
Thanks,
Steve
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melherman
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Hi Steve I am not sure how much contact there was between SAAF and USAAF personnel at Celone on a day-to-day basis. There are still a few 34 Sqn vets around in PE if you would like me to ask them? I do however have a photo (attached) that shows American, RAF and SAAF Jewish airmen at a Friday night service (in the local church!!). I believe the photo to have been taken at Celone. I also have a Prayer Book given to my uncle by the USAAF Chaplain in June '44 while Harland was with 12 Sqn SAAF in Italy (his 2nd tour of duty). The inside cover is signed by a number of USAAF airmen. These artefacts make me think that the Jewish boys, at least, did interact on some level. regards Mel
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Steve_Fossey
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Hi Mel,
Thanks for the response. No need to go out of your way to ask anyone. It was more just an idle curiosity on my part. However, that is an interesting photo that you have. A while back I exchanged some emails with a member of the 463rd who is Jewish. I will send him an email and see if he recognizes anyone or anything in the picture.
Regards,
Steve
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melherman
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Thanks Steve - that would be great! I should also follow up the names in the Prayer Books. I had another look at them yesterday: they were given to Harland by a) the SADF Jewish Chaplain (I.S. Romm) and b) the USAAF C of E Chaplain (C.L. Bishop) at Biferno aerodrome, Campo Marino on 12 and 16 June 1944. The American names & addresses appear to be guys from the 52nd Fighter Group, but there are also French, Greek and Egyptian signatories as well as South Africans, of course. The Americans are: Murray Grossman from Philadelphia Moses A. Hyman from Chattanooga Irving Jacobs from Philadelphia. Any ideas as to how I would go about finding out if these men are still alive? I supose the first step would to search on http://www.abmc.gov/search/wwii.php to see if they survived the war? regards Mel
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soalebm
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Steve & Mel,
I have been interviewing veterans for my research and hopefully a book in the near future. I am trying to self publish and I'm shooting for August if I can gather enough photos. The way to find people is to order Missing Air Crew Reports from the national archives and there will usually be enough info to start tracking people down. You will get 10 names for a B-17 crew for instance and their home address and next of kin information. Then go to a telephone # search website like whitepages.com and start looking. I usually make at least 5 calls before I find someone but I have always found at least 1 person from the crew or a family member. The crew I'm writing about which was with the 463rd had 7 surviving crewmembers when I started we now have 5. As for interaction with the SAAF and RAF there was some. A pilot I interviewed last year said that in the the officers mess halls and clubs they would play cards. An RAF airman taught him how to play bridge. He also told me that the RAF enlisted men put on a show once at a makeshift thatre and his crew attended. He said it was crude but absolutly wonderful fun which was exactly what he expected from those quote "crazy British flyboys." He knew they were RAF, SAAF, and RAAF but everyone I interview simply called them all RAF. I have not interviewed a member of the SAAF but I would love to!!!!!
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Steve_Fossey
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Mel,
No luck with the person from the 463rd recognizing anyone. He also said he had limited interaction with the SAAF folks. As for the 52nd FG guys you might also want to check the Social Security Death Index. Just google ssdi and it will come up. You will most likely be able to determine if they are still alive from that. If I get a chance I'll check it in the next couple days.
Steve
PS Brandon, I'll buy a copy of your book when it comes out.
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melherman
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Hi Steve & Brandon!
Thanks for the tips about searching for these American airmen.
I had a quick look at White Pages online last night and at peoplefinder (before I received your posts), and I think I may have found Irving H Jacobs in Philadelphia (or perhaps his widow). Am not sure because the sites both require you to login with an AMERICAN address, so I'm stymied!! I plan to delve a bit more today. . . . probably starting with SSDI!!
Have also checked out the Missing Aircrew site in the past but without an aircraft number, it's hit & miss!
Appreciate all the help, guys!
regards
Mel
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soalebm
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If you fool around with white pages long enough you can figure out a few ticks to finding hometowns. There is a site that is connected to white pages that wants you to pay for the information but they give you their hometown and approximate age for free to get you hooked. I look through those records and find an age that matches and then I use the free hometown info to call 411 or better yet 1800free411 to search for their number in that city. The stranger the name the better because you don't get a ton of results. If they were a pow you can look in the national archives POW MIA records online and it gives their recruiting location which is usually their hometown so that might help in some cases if it isn't on the MACR. Good luck!
Brandon
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melherman
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Thanks, Brandon! I will chase it up. I have, however established that Irving H Jacobs may have died in the past couple of years as the listing is now under Gladys S Jacobs (86) - probably his widow. I have the postal address, and intend to write to her this weekend. Fingers crossed!
All the best
Mel
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Xel
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melherman
Hi Brandon
The photo of the SAAF Liberator with ground crew appears in Lawrence Isemonger's book "The Men Who Went to Warsaw" - the story of 31 and 34 Sqns SAAF. The young man on the extreme right of the photo (Colin Trader) lives in Port Elizabeth, South Africa (as do I) and I know it was his copy of the photo that was used by Isemonger for the book. I have two more photos of SAAF Libs which I am posting here.
I am thrilled to know that there is some research being done into 205 Group's work in Italy, particularly from an American perspective. Have you read Maurice Lihou's book "It's Dicey Flying Wimpys Around Italian Skies"? It is also about 205 Group RAF. I will send you a PM regarding any other ways we may help each other - I have been researching my uncle (flew with 34 Sqn SAAF) for the past 6 years.
regards
Melanie Herman
Dear Melanie I refer your discussion with Brandon. My father is in the picture of Little Queen II KG967. He is in front row ( 2 men) he is the one with his shirt on a a moustache. Christoffel ( Stoffel) Frederick de Wit. He was a fitter / armourer ( an erk) - I think the crew is all ground crew. The man who is having his cigarette lit with his face partially obscured is possibly Gawie de Kock who remained a good friend of my dad and whom I met as a child. I am particularly excited to think that Mr Colin Trader may still be alive? Can you assist on this. I am totally new to forums so I hope I am doing this right ? Help please. I see you are interested in Sqd 34 - have you been on their facebook site and have you talked with Trevor Rubelli of Durban, he runs that site and it is full of 34 info and also a bit on 31 with photos of another Little Queen Liberator. Take a look at: http://te-in.facebook.com...820688&topic=13460 I have lots more photos but they are in Cape Town and I am living in Nairobi - I will be able to retrieve and scan same and post after August. Many thanks and hoping to hear from anyone who has more info. Christel
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Xel
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Dear All
I just learnt that my father, who is in the picture of Liberator Little Queen II with Colin Trader , was actually called Chris ( short for his first name Christoffel ) de Wit. All his war colleagues addressed him as Chris and not Stoffel which is how he was known by the family. This has been confirmed by my mother. 31 Squadron SAAF Celone Foggia 1955/1945 Ground Crew Fitter/ Armourer.
Best wishes
Christel
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Davidh52
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Dear Mel, One of those you mentioned whose name was inscribed in the prayer book was my dad, Moses A. Hyman. Sadly, Dad passed away in 1966. I had tried to get his USAAF record from the military personnel records depot in St Louis, but his was among those lost in the fire that consumed the place several years ago. So, I was particularly glad and surprised to find your post mentioning him. Any other information you have about him or his unit would be most welcome and appreciated. Thanks so very much. David Hyman
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pzulba
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melherman
Hi Brandon
The photo of the SAAF Liberator with ground crew appears in Lawrence Isemonger's book "The Men Who Went to Warsaw" - the story of 31 and 34 Sqns SAAF. The young man on the extreme right of the photo (Colin Trader) lives in Port Elizabeth, South Africa (as do I) and I know it was his copy of the photo that was used by Isemonger for the book. I have two more photos of SAAF Libs which I am posting here.
I am thrilled to know that there is some research being done into 205 Group's work in Italy, particularly from an American perspective. Have you read Maurice Lihou's book "It's Dicey Flying Wimpys Around Italian Skies"? It is also about 205 Group RAF. I will send you a PM regarding any other ways we may help each other - I have been researching my uncle (flew with 34 Sqn SAAF) for the past 6 years.
regards
Melanie Herman
Hi Brandon & Melanie The Photo that Melanie has posted of the Liberator 'K' in flight over 'Yugoslavia, was taken by my late father - then Sgt Ken Crossley RAF(VR) who was an Air Gunner attached to 34 Squadron & later 31 Squadron SAAF - photo was taken during a daylight (Obviously) supply drop mission to the Yugoslav (Tito's) partisans The photo was published in various wartime newspapers/magazines and has been used in numerous books covering RAF/SAAF operations in WWII PZULBA - out of Africa (Retired)
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