Reply to post

Ploesti Raid B-24 loss

Page: 12 > Showing page 1 of 2
Author
wlpilot
Group Member
  • Total Posts : 177
  • Reward points : 1332
  • Joined: 2004/01/01 08:29:13
  • Location: Bavaria / Germany
  • Status: offline
2008/02/18 04:25:37 (permalink)
0

Ploesti Raid B-24 loss

Searching a B-24 from one of this groups 93th, 98th, 44th, 389th or 376th BG which was lost at 1. August 1943 in Ploesti. The aircraft what I searching has the letter "E" on the engine and made a landing. The front gear only break. I think the crew was save and all was POW. Know someone about?

Thank you for the help

Mike

22 Replies Related Threads

    mike
    Group Member
    • Total Posts : 317
    • Reward points : 9527
    • Joined: 2004/09/21 00:40:36
    • Status: offline
    RE: Ploesti Raid B-24 loss 2008/02/18 10:14:48 (permalink)
    0
    wlpilot
     
    That sounds like "Honky Tonk Gal" ... B-24D-45-CO, 42-40265 ... Pictures are shown on page 124 of Roger Freeman's "The Ploesti Raid, Through the Lens". The book is a fine read, if your interested in that raid you should get it.
     
    Mike
    rhammans
    Group Member
    • Total Posts : 313
    • Reward points : 2301
    • Joined: 2005/11/12 20:25:46
    • Location: Iowa
    • Status: offline
    RE: Ploesti Raid B-24 loss 2008/02/18 12:09:44 (permalink)
    0
    Mike,

    Honky Tonk Gal, piloted by Hubert K. Womble, was shot down by flak just north of Ploesti. At least one crew member was KIA, with at least 8 of the crew POW. Not sure about the 10th crew member.

    I believe that this was a 93rd Bomb Group craft, but cannot confirm that now.

    There is a brief mention of this in "Ploesti:  The Great Ground-Air Battle of 1 August 1943, by James Dugan and Carroll Stewart. This book was revised and re-issued by Brassey's in 2002. It's exceptionall well-researched and is definitetly a book you want to read if you are interested in Operation Tidal Wave.

    Reed
    vic-513
    Division Member
    • Total Posts : 1640
    • Reward points : 9109
    • Joined: 2002/05/20 18:45:58
    • Location: Refugio, TX
    • Status: offline
    RE: Ploesti Raid B-24 loss 2008/02/18 17:16:28 (permalink)
    0
    Mike,
     
    If the plane was "Honky Tonk Gal" it was a 93rd BG plane. "Ted's Travelling Circus" says the crew all became POWs. Womble's foot was severed by a control cable when the plane landed in a wheat field. There is a picture of the plane after it landed on page 183.
     
    Vic

    Vic Walzel, brother of 1st Lt Leland H. Walzel, bombardier with the 93rd Bomb Group, 330th Squadron. KIA 6 March 1944 on his 25th mission.
    www.lelandwalzel.150m.com
    mike
    Group Member
    • Total Posts : 317
    • Reward points : 9527
    • Joined: 2004/09/21 00:40:36
    • Status: offline
    RE: Ploesti Raid B-24 loss 2008/02/18 20:07:20 (permalink)
    0

    Vic,
     

    Mike asked about a plane that crash landed and the damage was confined to a broken front wheel. That seems to fit “Honkey Tonk Gal”. According to Freeman Womble tried a “wheels down” landing in a wheat field after losing three engines to ground fire but hit a raised railroad bed. Little died Aug. 8 of pneumonia in a hospital the rest were POW.  Freeman has three pictures of the “Gal” on page 124 of his book and a short paragraph describing the crash.
     

    I have a copy of the original 
    “
    The Great Ground-Air Battle of 1 August 1943”  autographed by “Leon” but I have never read it. It was given to me by my mother to read and understand what happened to dad in “the war”. 
     
    I couldn’t get your web page to “load” for me …
     
    Mike
    vic-513
    Division Member
    • Total Posts : 1640
    • Reward points : 9109
    • Joined: 2002/05/20 18:45:58
    • Location: Refugio, TX
    • Status: offline
    RE: Ploesti Raid B-24 loss 2008/02/19 00:09:27 (permalink)
    0
    Mike,
     
    The picture I mentioned shows "Honky Tonk Gal" in the wheat field nosed over. I should have said crashlanded. Try the site again. I haven't heard of any problems with it.
     
    Vic

    Vic Walzel, brother of 1st Lt Leland H. Walzel, bombardier with the 93rd Bomb Group, 330th Squadron. KIA 6 March 1944 on his 25th mission.
    www.lelandwalzel.150m.com
    buckeyeuk
    Scooter
    • Total Posts : 1746
    • Reward points : 11393
    • Joined: 2005/02/26 13:57:44
    • Location: Bedford England
    • Status: offline
    RE: Ploesti Raid B-24 loss 2008/02/19 07:21:25 (permalink)
    0
    Mike--Vic......did the 93rd ever put their letters on the cowlings ? - I'm thinking of the " E " as marked. The only group of the 5 to do that regularly was the 98th, the 376th had numbers and the 3 Eighth groups put their's on the tails. Could it be 98th ?           Thanks   Nick
    vic-513
    Division Member
    • Total Posts : 1640
    • Reward points : 9109
    • Joined: 2002/05/20 18:45:58
    • Location: Refugio, TX
    • Status: offline
    RE: Ploesti Raid B-24 loss 2008/02/19 11:32:54 (permalink)
    0
    Nick,
     
    I have a couple of pictures of 93rd BG planes and the letters are on the tail. Squadron letters were aft of the waist gun openings.
     
    Vic

    Vic Walzel, brother of 1st Lt Leland H. Walzel, bombardier with the 93rd Bomb Group, 330th Squadron. KIA 6 March 1944 on his 25th mission.
    www.lelandwalzel.150m.com
    mike
    Group Member
    • Total Posts : 317
    • Reward points : 9527
    • Joined: 2004/09/21 00:40:36
    • Status: offline
    RE: Ploesti Raid B-24 loss 2008/02/19 11:47:46 (permalink)
    0

    Vic
     

    I tried your site again and noticed on the bottom IE toolbar that I did not have some “active-X” plugins activated, I do now and your site works just fine. As an added bonus I can now hack videos off the internet … yes!!
     

    While I was looking for lettered engines in Freemans book I noticed that “Boiler Maker II” B-24D-5-CO, 41-23782 was also “nosed over” in a field, pg 127.  All 10 survived and the plane was repaired and flown out by the Rumanians.
     

    Nick, “Honky Tonk Gal” was in 93BG, 409BS and “Boiler Maker II” was in the 98BG, 415BS.  That’s as close to an answer as I can get. I hope that helps.
     

    Mike
    shooshoobaby
    Air Force Brat
    • Total Posts : 6437
    • Reward points : 7481
    • Joined: 2006/01/28 14:22:13
    • Location: Pacific NW
    • Status: offline
    RE: Ploesti Raid B-24 loss 2008/02/19 11:57:41 (permalink)
    0
    Mike - Nick,
    I believe it is the 98th BG.
    I found a Photo of # 41 - 11840 " The Witch "
    It had a Small letter  P on outboard Cowling of # 1 Engine.
    Also had  P on Tail
    Crashed in Yugoslavia returning from 8/1/43 Ploesti Mission.
    " Boilermaker II " had Call letter  E
    Mike
    buckeyeuk
    Scooter
    • Total Posts : 1746
    • Reward points : 11393
    • Joined: 2005/02/26 13:57:44
    • Location: Bedford England
    • Status: offline
    RE: Ploesti Raid B-24 loss 2008/02/19 15:23:26 (permalink)
    0
    Thanks all.....if Mike's B-24 " E " was in Sand finish it's Ninth AF  ie. 98th or 376th. Both had a few OD-NG planes but the 3  Eighth groups were olive drab; the 389th had the newest B-24s so looked darker. After some time in the desert and the OD weathered it was hard to tell it from Sand.         Nick
    vic-513
    Division Member
    • Total Posts : 1640
    • Reward points : 9109
    • Joined: 2002/05/20 18:45:58
    • Location: Refugio, TX
    • Status: offline
    RE: Ploesti Raid B-24 loss 2008/02/19 17:08:30 (permalink)
    0
    Glad the site opened for you. I think you guys have found the plane as a 98th BG plane.
     
    Vic

    Vic Walzel, brother of 1st Lt Leland H. Walzel, bombardier with the 93rd Bomb Group, 330th Squadron. KIA 6 March 1944 on his 25th mission.
    www.lelandwalzel.150m.com
    shooshoobaby
    Air Force Brat
    • Total Posts : 6437
    • Reward points : 7481
    • Joined: 2006/01/28 14:22:13
    • Location: Pacific NW
    • Status: offline
    RE: Ploesti Raid B-24 loss 2008/02/19 18:19:57 (permalink)
    0
    B - 24 # 41 - 23782 E " Boilermaker II "
    98th BG
    Badly Damaged over Ploesti -
    Crash Landed in a Cornfield
    Pilot - Lt. Ted Helin
    10 Crew -  POWs
    Crash Photo in Book : The Desert Rats: 98th BG  by Michael Hill
    Mike
    WillowRun
    AMIABLE HISTORIAN
    • Total Posts : 2042
    • Reward points : 20049
    • Status: offline
    RE: Ploesti Raid B-24 loss 2008/02/19 21:34:39 (permalink)
    0
    Vic,  Definitely NOT an authority here, but from my readings of the various 01AU43 Low Level Raids and on-line accounts, I would tend to agree.  Also Nick's post on "paint" and weathering was also interesting.  I personally can not find out  enough about Ploesti, having had a former Supervisor, now deceased, at GM WR who worked for me and who, way back then, was on the the opposite end of the 88's.  Best Regards!  Steven

    Attached Image(s)


     
    Best Regards!
    Steven P. Puhl
    Ford Willow Run B-24 Bomber Plant (FO) Historian
    MODERATOR: http://www.armyairforces.com/
    Life Member: Yankee Air Museum
    Member: 8TH AF Historical Society
    Member: 2ND Air Division Historical Society 
     
    buckeyeuk
    Scooter
    • Total Posts : 1746
    • Reward points : 11393
    • Joined: 2005/02/26 13:57:44
    • Location: Bedford England
    • Status: offline
    RE: Ploesti Raid B-24 loss 2008/02/20 08:27:45 (permalink)
    0
    Steven       this period, early 1943 was very much a time of transition for AAF insignia; the bars to the star were introduced in June , at first to be outlined in red . In fact there are at least 4 variations which can be seen on Aug. 1st; plain blue disc and star; blue disc with yellow outline; the same with plain white bars, and the same with red outlines to the bars only. Some of the Eighth B-24s had their stars dulled with grey.
    In Sept. the outlines SHOULD have been changed to blue.
    Incidentally WR B-24s up to and including early Hs had 65" nominal fuselage stars, afterward reduced to 45 " with bars.
                           Nick
    WillowRun
    AMIABLE HISTORIAN
    • Total Posts : 2042
    • Reward points : 20049
    • Status: offline
    RE: Ploesti Raid B-24 loss 2008/02/21 20:55:38 (permalink)
    0
    Incidentally WR B-24s up to and including early Hs had 65" nominal fuselage stars, afterward reduced to 45 " with bars.


    Nick,  Was this a "standard" for all B-24 A/C's or special to FO WR?   I am assuming that insignia, lettering and s/n's were all templated to a particular spec.  If you take a close look at the  attached pic., these Libs have just entered the final stretch of the FO WR Assembly Process, having just made the "tax turn."  Note the wing in the foreground. This would be a "J" variant.   This last stretch added all the "finished" details. Note also that the nose turret has armament in place while the A/C immediately in front still lacks the tail turret.  Best Regards!  Steven  
    post edited by rzrj3b - 2008/02/23 10:32:52

    Attached Image(s)


     
    Best Regards!
    Steven P. Puhl
    Ford Willow Run B-24 Bomber Plant (FO) Historian
    MODERATOR: http://www.armyairforces.com/
    Life Member: Yankee Air Museum
    Member: 8TH AF Historical Society
    Member: 2ND Air Division Historical Society 
     
    buckeyeuk
    Scooter
    • Total Posts : 1746
    • Reward points : 11393
    • Joined: 2005/02/26 13:57:44
    • Location: Bedford England
    • Status: offline
    RE: Ploesti Raid B-24 loss 2008/02/23 08:27:12 (permalink)
    0
    Steven                   my apologies for delay in replying your query.
    The 2 insigniae were not unique to Ford; the original large 65" star was on early S. Diego and Fort Worth , also WR B-24Es and their first Hs. Just to complicate things mid-range Fort Worth Ds and Hs had a 50" disc.
    The fuselage insignia was later standardised at 45" diam. with bars but located at different positions depending on the manufacturer. This included Tulsa and Dallas.  If you can't see the serial it's often possible to tell the maker by this.
    There were all manner of Specifications, Bulletins, Tech. Orders, amendments and revisions relating to factory-applied markings but to be honest I don't get too involved with them , makes my teeth ache.
    Where markings were added or altered "in the field" they would vary fron the regulation, as when serials were re-marked after coloured tails adopted by Eighth-Fifteenth.
    Even factory painted serials varied in placement with makers, at different locations on the fin. There were actually 2 different styles of " 2 " (as there were in P-47 blocks as I found to my cost when I had to alter some profiles ).
    The new B-24 in your last post has the final position for the fuselage insignia---the side window is the late ,deeper type and the bar alignes with it's bottom edge. I think this window was from J--1 onwards ?
    It also shows the second and final location for the wing insignia, the rear edge of the disc borders the aileron cut-out ( earlier style was further forward almost touching the de-icer boots.
     
    The attached picture (USAF) shows the early Ford star and bar, overlapping the apperture; the serial ( moved to inner fins) indicates an H-1-FO, just visible low down is their distinctive wavy colour line, a most useful recognition feature. Note the wing insignia mentioned above--further forward. The star is dulled with light grey as is the group's wing disc ( but no group " D " in it for the 392nd. ). The serial was re-positioned with added tail colours and the fabric ailerons have faded much lighter.
    Please note that these details come from notes I've collected over the years and are not finite; but it's usually  possible to check serials (where known ) and markings against manufacturers.
                                           Regards   Nick

    Attached Image(s)

    WillowRun
    AMIABLE HISTORIAN
    • Total Posts : 2042
    • Reward points : 20049
    • Status: offline
    RE: Ploesti Raid B-24 loss 2008/02/23 11:46:41 (permalink)
    0
    There were all manner of Specifications, Bulletins, Tech. Orders, amendments and revisions relating to factory-applied markings but to be honest I don't get too involved with them , makes my teeth ache.
     
    Nick,  Good morning (albeit, Good Late Afternoon for you) from across the "POND!)  Thanks for the great pic and the "clearer explanation" about a confused subject.  I copied one lin from your post that  really struck me most especially beause of the "standards" and "ongoing" engineering changes.  At FO WR, even in the beginning as FO was learning from CO, there were 80,000 templates in the design stages that had to b "scrapped" because of ommissions on Consolidated Original Master Templates.  These had to due with all facets of the A/C manufacturing.  The subsequent lists throughout the production of the FO WR Libs is endless!  Key among these were armour plating and armament, especially with the front and rear turrets.  Obviously as these major changes occurred, this would affect secondary changes, i.e., paint, lettering, numbering etc.  Of course, I am referring to "factory installations" without even touching on the myriad of Field MODS.  It is a fascinating, but overwhelming subject.  Al Blue had mentioned an interesting book which I have had a hard time finding (shoulda had this one in my repetoire a long time ago) entitled:  The Wartime Journals of Charles A. Lindbergh (New York: Harcourt Brace Jovanvich, Inc., 1980).  sooner or later I'll find a copy.   Best Regards!   Steven

     
    Best Regards!
    Steven P. Puhl
    Ford Willow Run B-24 Bomber Plant (FO) Historian
    MODERATOR: http://www.armyairforces.com/
    Life Member: Yankee Air Museum
    Member: 8TH AF Historical Society
    Member: 2ND Air Division Historical Society 
     
    buckeyeuk
    Scooter
    • Total Posts : 1746
    • Reward points : 11393
    • Joined: 2005/02/26 13:57:44
    • Location: Bedford England
    • Status: offline
    RE: Ploesti Raid B-24 loss 2008/02/23 16:45:58 (permalink)
    0
    Steven.....not sure if it's the same book but there are 12 new and used copies on Amazon of " The wartime journals" by Charles A Lindbergh ( Thomson Learning 1970 ). From US--UK.
     
    You may know that some of the B-24 losses on Tidal Wave were to Rumanian and Bulgarian fighters ?
    The Rumanians were Me.109Gs attached to I. / JG4, Rumanian IAR.80 / 81s, and Me.110s of 12./ NJG6 some apparently with Rumanian pilots. Their claims were for 10 B-24s.
    Bulgarian claims ( in Me.109Gs, though some obsolete Czech-built Avia B.534s also tried to intercept ) were 5 bombers.
    Their future top ace Stoyan Stoyanov shot down 2 ; both air arms had a "points" system for claims, heavy bombers being most valuable.
    No doubt the Hungarians were very occupied with the Soviets at the time and had few fighter defences in the area.                                    Nick
    WillowRun
    AMIABLE HISTORIAN
    • Total Posts : 2042
    • Reward points : 20049
    • Status: offline
    RE: Ploesti Raid B-24 loss 2008/02/23 17:24:51 (permalink)
    0
    Nick,  Thanks!  When I had looked  last year, there were none available.  Time to use my Christmas giftcard!
     
    In one of my Threads (Ploesti: Low Level Raid)  I talk about one of my GM WR (formerly FO WR) employees who had been conscripted by the Germans and fired 88 Flak against our  B-24's.
     
    This is a reference to one of the Supervisors who worked for me many years ago and who has since passed away.  He was Rumanian ans had been conscripted as a youth.  Imagine, he ended up his career in the GM WR Facility which had the legacy of building the A/C's, FO WR, that he was trained to shoot down.  Also thought I'd attach an in plant photo of the "D's" on the Assembly Production Line  #1.  Not the best, but it does show the template of the early insignia across the waist.  I thought I had a better one, but when I find it, I'll post it.  This one actually is off the Web and not nearly as good as the one in my "stash."  Best Regards!  Steven

    Attached Image(s)


     
    Best Regards!
    Steven P. Puhl
    Ford Willow Run B-24 Bomber Plant (FO) Historian
    MODERATOR: http://www.armyairforces.com/
    Life Member: Yankee Air Museum
    Member: 8TH AF Historical Society
    Member: 2ND Air Division Historical Society 
     
    Page: 12 > Showing page 1 of 2
    Jump to:
    © 2014 APG vNext Commercial Version 5.0