Reply to post

Ploesti August 1, 1943

Page: < 12345.. > >> Showing page 5 of 6
Author
mcoffee
Wing Member
  • Total Posts : 501
  • Reward points : 6403
  • Joined: 2002/06/12 13:52:58
  • Status: offline
RE: Ploesti August 1, 1943 2008/01/30 12:34:54 (permalink)
0
Ken,
 
It looks as though a couple of numbers got transposed.  The MACR database shows 42-52156 lost by the 451st on 17 April.  Slick Chick , 42-52165, was indeed transfered to the 449th and lost 23 April over Vienna, MACR 4199.
 
Vesko,
 
The 47th Wing's target on 17 April was Sofia marshalling yard.  The 47th consisted of the 98th, 376th, 449th and 450th.  However, per the MACR database, the only two heavy bombers lost on 17 April were the two above lost by the 451st over Belgrade.  The painting you attached shows a 376th ship tail marking - the triangle represents the 47th Wing, the '2' in the lower circle designates the 376th.  The skull and cross-bones on the nose is the squadron insignia for the 512th Squadron. 
stoyanov
Squadron Member
  • Total Posts : 15
  • Reward points : 448
  • Joined: 2008/01/18 17:05:03
  • Location: Sofia, Bulgaria
  • Status: offline
RE: Ploesti August 1, 1943 2008/01/31 03:18:33 (permalink)
0
Hi mcoffe,
Well I hope we will trace what we look for .I will meet Mr.Marii Chernev who painted the Ramming but in my opinion he was not precise in presenting the real signs on the  bomber simply because he like us  had not any info about it .
So the possibility of a wrong record (MACR) or remains.Or may be the  bomber crashed after the hit on yugoslav territory which is just 30 miles away from Sofia and is recorded as lost in the raid v/s Belgrade the same day.But none of MACRs so far mentioned in this forum gives a reason for the loss different than damaged by flak or enemy fighter's shooting .The book mentioned above by AL BLUE :  Roger Freeman's final book, "The Ploesti Raid - Through The Lens"  is expensive for me to order  and I am not sure thatthere will be what  I neet to know but the same MACRs.
catch 22
Group Member
  • Total Posts : 148
  • Reward points : 4302
  • Joined: 2006/11/08 20:24:02
  • Location: Canada
  • Status: offline
RE: Ploesti August 1, 1943 2008/01/31 09:50:07 (permalink)
0
ORIGINAL: mcoffee
It looks as though a couple of numbers got transposed.  The MACR database shows 42-52156 lost by the 451st on 17 April.  Slick Chick , 42-52165, was indeed transfered to the 449th and lost 23 April over Vienna, MACR 4199.

I think the second plane 42-52165 has nothing to do with the case.
MACR 4520 for s/n 42-52156 is sorted under April 17,1944, but in fact the a/c had troubles on March 17 after a mission to Vienna and ditched in the Adriatic sea. It is just an error in the MACR - s. below:

 


 
Ken a B24 Fan
Division Member
  • Total Posts : 1207
  • Reward points : 1684
  • Joined: 2006/03/19 20:39:00
  • Status: offline
RE: Ploesti August 1, 1943 2008/01/31 13:22:36 (permalink)
0
The "451st BG in WWII—A Pictorial History" states, as Catch22 does above, that 42-52156, LAMPLIGHTER II: Original squadron aircraft. Transfered to 725th Sq shortly after arriving. Aircraft ditched at sea March 17, 1944 due to battle damage. Three crew were lost at sea.

The "49th Wing" book says: 42-52156 SMALL FRY/LAMPLIGHTER II: An original 726th BS plane, she departed the USA on December 5, 1943, under command of Charles Small and crew #42. Later transfered to the 725th Sqadron. Ditched in the Adriatic on MArch 17, 1944 due to battle damage. Three of Ralph Darrow's crew were lost (MACR #4520).

So, as Catch 22 pointed out, this isn't the second plane either.

Ken

Ken Alexander
Proud son of 1st Lt. Clair B. Alexander Jr.
Pilot, B-24s: 10/12/1944 - 04/24/1945
15th AF, 49th Wing, 461st BG, 764th BS
Torretta Airfield, Cerignola, Italy
catch 22
Group Member
  • Total Posts : 148
  • Reward points : 4302
  • Joined: 2006/11/08 20:24:02
  • Location: Canada
  • Status: offline
RE: Ploesti August 1, 1943 2008/01/31 19:26:32 (permalink)
0
ORIGINAL:
So, as Catch 22 pointed out, this isn't the second plane either.
Ken

 
Ken,
I believe there is no second B-24 shot down on the same day. The only one was 41-29220 over Mostar.
But there is a P-51B shot down over Bulgaria on April 17-th 1944 - 309-th FS., 31-st FG., s/n 42-106479 with pilot 2-nd Lt. Raymond L. Dammeron . The MACR # is 4230.
 
Yves
stoyanov
Squadron Member
  • Total Posts : 15
  • Reward points : 448
  • Joined: 2008/01/18 17:05:03
  • Location: Sofia, Bulgaria
  • Status: offline
RE: Ploesti August 1, 1943 2008/02/01 02:43:21 (permalink)
0
Hi,
As I admitted in Post 85 and after asking the painter Marii Chernev  the signs  on the US A/C  are not real ones.When he  made this picture some years ago  he  has not any idea of their meaning (BG, SQR or type of bomber and the P-51 in background).If anyone has the book "The Ploesti Raid - Through The Lens" let him pls. find the info about  bombers lost on 17 April 44 .His help will be appreciated.Thanks.
Al Blue
Plank owner
  • Total Posts : 562
  • Reward points : 4642
  • Joined: 2002/01/02 19:23:04
  • Location: PA
  • Status: offline
RE: Ploesti August 1, 1943 2008/02/01 05:46:46 (permalink)
0
As the title implies, the Roger Freeman book  "The Ploesti Raid - Through The Lens" deals only with the 1 August 1943 Ploesti mission, which was the original subject of this Thread.
 
Al
stoyanov
Squadron Member
  • Total Posts : 15
  • Reward points : 448
  • Joined: 2008/01/18 17:05:03
  • Location: Sofia, Bulgaria
  • Status: offline
RE: Ploesti August 1, 1943 2008/02/01 06:37:50 (permalink)
0
Thanks Al.
VS
stoyanov
Squadron Member
  • Total Posts : 15
  • Reward points : 448
  • Joined: 2008/01/18 17:05:03
  • Location: Sofia, Bulgaria
  • Status: offline
RE: Ploesti August 1, 1943 2008/02/02 12:27:37 (permalink)
0
Al,
According veterans the bomber was  Liberator and not B-17 and flew last in the 3th wave which has dropped  their  bombs over Sofia  and turned back to the south when the ME-109 of Bonchev sowt and attacked it and hit the tail-of the bomber. The bomber exploded in the air  over the village  DRUGAN  situated near the town of RADOMIR.(See attached map) .Obviously there were no survivers from the bomber  as none of the 359 POWs  registered in Bulgaria in 1944 were  from this aircraft .
Vesko

Attached Image(s)

WillowRun
AMIABLE HISTORIAN
  • Total Posts : 2042
  • Reward points : 20049
  • Status: offline
RE: Ploesti August 1, 1943 2008/06/29 21:39:54 (permalink)
0
Came across this pic tonight from a German (Deutsche) Website which I had not seen in this clarity before.  It was taken shortly after the low level raid with this pic in particular being the Columbia Aquila Refinery ablaze.  Note in particular the upper left storage tanks.  It will be 65 years ago this coming August 1st that this "black Sunday" will be remembered.  Best Regards!  Steven

Attached Image(s)


 
Best Regards!
Steven P. Puhl
Ford Willow Run B-24 Bomber Plant (FO) Historian
MODERATOR: http://www.armyairforces.com/
Life Member: Yankee Air Museum
Member: 8TH AF Historical Society
Member: 2ND Air Division Historical Society 
 
rajordan
Cadet
  • Total Posts : 3
  • Reward points : 788
  • Joined: 2008/01/23 23:16:36
  • Status: offline
RE: Ploesti August 1, 1943 2008/08/24 20:51:08 (permalink)
0
For anyone researching these names, the correct name is Lloyd Herbert Hughes. His nickname was Pete. The middle initial "D" is erroneous. For more information on my Uncle Pete, see www.rajordan.com/pete
Herb Harper
Wing Member
  • Total Posts : 573
  • Reward points : 6395
  • Joined: 2004/11/12 20:10:08
  • Status: offline
RE: Ploesti August 1, 1943 2008/08/25 12:27:25 (permalink)
0
YES:

One of the latest and best books published on the subject is "BURNING HITLER"S BLACK GOLD" by Frank Way with Major Robert Sternfels who was pilot of "THE SANDMAN", the aircraft pictured coming out of the smoke and dodging smoke stacks.  Bob Sternfels is still alive and an active member of the 98th Bomb Group veteans Association. There have been at least two updates of this book since the original. I worked with Frank and Bob on the book with technical data about the 98th Bomb Group and the mission.
Unfortunately Ardery's comments about Kane are personal and inaccurate. I served under Col. Kane at Smokey Hill, Kansas when he was Base Commander there in 1953. Col. Kane died 29 May 1996 and is interred at Arlington.

Herb Harper, Historian 98th Vets. Assoc.
Herb Harper
Wing Member
  • Total Posts : 573
  • Reward points : 6395
  • Joined: 2004/11/12 20:10:08
  • Status: offline
Re: RE: Ploesti August 1, 1943 2008/08/26 10:12:33 (permalink)
0
Anthony:

I do have quite a file on John R. (Killer) Kane and correspond with his son and daughter-in-law. They have attended  some of our annual reunions. (this year Cincinnati and you are welcome to visit us there). I will TRY to answer any question you have on Col. Kane, or pass questions on to his son.

I have found small errors in most of the books I have read about Tidal Wave, Including Dugan & Stewart and Michael Hill's books.

"Burning Hitler's Black Gold"  tries to dispell and correct some of the misinformation and opinions that has prevailed in former publications. It is a fact, many mistakes were made on the Tidal Wave mission, however Bob Sternfels tries to explain the IFS, WHYS, WHERES and HOWS the different opinions came about.

Herb Harper

Herb Harper
Herb Harper
Wing Member
  • Total Posts : 573
  • Reward points : 6395
  • Joined: 2004/11/12 20:10:08
  • Status: offline
Re: RE: Ploesti August 1, 1943 2008/08/26 16:04:41 (permalink)
0
The diaries, I do NOT have. Perhaps they are retained by his son. Actually, his daughter in law,  Donna,  does most of the correspondence and record keeping. As of about 2002, Kane's FIRST wife was still alive.

Contact me at BOMBGRP98@aol.com and I will give you Donna's address and phone #

Herb

Herb Harper
Herb Harper
Wing Member
  • Total Posts : 573
  • Reward points : 6395
  • Joined: 2004/11/12 20:10:08
  • Status: offline
Re: RE: Ploesti August 1, 1943 2008/08/28 22:02:12 (permalink)
0
Alex:

Much of the stuff reported relative to Col. Kane is unfounded officially. So it would be conjecture on my part to say "this or that did or did not happen". It is, however known that Kane was quite out spoken. forthright and blunt. An example of this is a quote from him.  "One of the Air Force V.I.P.s asked me if I thought my men would follow me into the target. My reply cannot be printed here verbatum, but I advised him that the men had demonstrated their courage many times and that if he thought I was not capable of leading my men he could have me replaced and do the job himself. He declined the offer". He does not identify the individual.
I think this will give you an idea of the character of Col. Kane

Herb


Herb Harper
Nextgen
Group Member
  • Total Posts : 246
  • Reward points : 3081
  • Joined: 2007/04/21 00:25:28
  • Location: Texas
  • Status: offline
Re: RE: Ploesti August 1, 1943 2008/08/29 21:58:04 (permalink)
0
In today’s world any foul-up must have a scapegoat. At that point in time they were looking for silver linings not scapegoats. It would have served no purpose to court martial someone for such a mission. Bear in mind that they were still trying to figure out how to use strategic bombing. A lot of costly mistakes were made, this was just one, but they were writing the book as they went. My hat’s off to all those gallant gentlemen who flew these early missions knowing they were guinea pigs of sorts in the strategy of war.
The first Ploesti Mission is often compared to the Doolittle mission in that neither inflicted enough damage to justify the cost. Both however had the far-reaching effect of forcing the enemy to pull much offensive manpower and machinery off the front line and deploy them in a defensive roll.
In the book I’m currently reading, No Foxholes in the Sky by Henry, his group goes to Ploesti over a dozen times, but not at 75 feet.
WillowRun
AMIABLE HISTORIAN
  • Total Posts : 2042
  • Reward points : 20049
  • Status: offline
Re: RE: Ploesti August 1, 1943 2008/08/30 22:21:04 (permalink)
0
Nextgen

The first Ploesti Mission is often compared to the Doolittle mission in that neither inflicted enough damage to justify the cost. Both however had the far-reaching effect of forcing the enemy to pull much offensive manpower and machinery off the front line and deploy them in a defensive roll.


Lance,    I tend to agree!  Your comparison is very apropriate! I've reread this thread often and tried to imagine what this mission might have been like.  Today, in retrospec, we can, as researchers, historians or whatever make a lot of suppositions based on literature and interviews, but we were not there.  I believe that as long as we remain open, we can always dig and then pass on what we discover and know.  Best Regards!  Steven

Attached Image(s)


 
Best Regards!
Steven P. Puhl
Ford Willow Run B-24 Bomber Plant (FO) Historian
MODERATOR: http://www.armyairforces.com/
Life Member: Yankee Air Museum
Member: 8TH AF Historical Society
Member: 2ND Air Division Historical Society 
 
Nextgen
Group Member
  • Total Posts : 246
  • Reward points : 3081
  • Joined: 2007/04/21 00:25:28
  • Location: Texas
  • Status: offline
Re: RE: Ploesti August 1, 1943 2008/08/30 22:49:17 (permalink)
0
A couple times a year I have the opportunity to have lunch with a pilot from the 389th who flew the low-level Ploesti raid.  Tough as that one was, he said that he flew worse missions once he got back to England. 
Lucky Partners
Division Member
  • Total Posts : 3019
  • Reward points : 8731
  • Joined: 2007/03/04 08:37:45
  • Location: Florida
  • Status: offline
Re: RE: Ploesti August 1, 1943 2008/08/31 11:38:50 (permalink)
0
Thumbing through one of my Ploesti books this morning I came across Kane's obituary.  From the New York Times, June 12, 1996. 

Hal

Attached Image(s)

93rd joe
Group Member
  • Total Posts : 104
  • Reward points : 3097
  • Joined: 2004/12/21 17:51:30
  • Status: offline
Re: RE: Ploesti August 1, 1943 2008/09/01 19:24:32 (permalink)
0
Steven

  I was looking at your post with the art work of crews flying at Low Level over Ploesti. I just finished Col Edward Weir's new book (Down TO  TWO FEET ALTITUDE). Ed was the Navigator for the 93Rd BG 409sq  and was an eyewitness  to the gallantry of so many crews that lost there lives that August 1,1943. Ed's Tupelo Lass crew followed their leader Addison Baker piloting  Hells Wench into the oil fields of Ploesti. After the bomb run Tupelo Lass turned over the city and down a very wide street. As they were instructed not to shoot up the city the top turret gunner Ben Kuroki held his fire but continued to swing his twin fifties back and forth looking for flak gunners on towers and buildings.
 I asked Ed how low they were flying and his responce was that in the nose of the B-24 manning his 50 cal. machine gun. He was looking into 2nd story windows! Something he will never forget.
 A must read.

 God Bless them all!
Joe Avendano Duran
Nephew of Capt Joe Avendano -Pilot of Dogpatchraiders Ploesti crew 8/1/43
Page: < 12345.. > >> Showing page 5 of 6
Jump to:
© 2014 APG vNext Commercial Version 5.0