The referenced document can be found here:
http://www.au.af.mil/au/afhra/numbered_studies/studies3.asp
See study #103.
 
The author's footnotes reference Jacob Smart as the source for the Flavelle as leader scenario.  This may have been an attempt by Smart to deflect criticism from Ent and Compton.

ORIGINAL: Blackie Bales

...The thing that bugs me about the Michael Hill book is the lack of an index.  How did the editors at Schiffer let that happen?  I am tempted to index it myself to make it useful as a reference book.  I have made a list of indexed items for my own use because of this project. 

                                                  Blackie

I have nothing but respect for Mike Hill's work, but Schiffer did a LOUSY job on the preparation of 'Black Sunday'. The package is gorgeous and the photos are fairly comprehensive for the moment it was published, but it's almost as if they decided not to hire an editor. It has been a few years since I read it, but I remember being frustrated by the mis-spellings, awkward English and inconsistencies. Mr. Hill's scholarly dedication deserved better.

From the Introduction to The Liberandos:
"A substantial portion of the wartime records of the 376th Group was lost while being loaded aboard a ship in Taranto Harbor, Italy, as the Group was preparing to return to the United States in April 1945.  Fortunately, the debriefing reports for the majority of the missions still survive in a repository at Maxwell Air Force Base."
 
From experience, I know that the mission folders for April-May '44 are intact.  I don't know how much of the Tidal Wave information was lost.

Can anyone post a link to Ardery's article? I've read and quite enjoyed Bomber Pilot, and would love to see this as well.

-Jake

Major,
A classic example of author incompetence.In two different books the authors have my brother in-law and another fighter pilot following their flight leader into the Adriatic shortly after mission started.Author number one said they did that because they were taught to follow their leader.Wow!!,my brother in-law was not even in the flight alluded to.He was lost,but on the return from the mission and brought down by flack.It is my understanding the second book was a copy of the Adriatic episode.
Author number one was supposidly a friend of my wifes brother.Again,WOW!!.

Fair Winds and following seas.
John, (GM 3/C USS Frost DE 144)

Kin to LT. John W. Farnkopf
15th AAF, 52 FG, 4th FS; Madna, Italy
MIA 11/11/44 remains found 12/8/53

Alas, Janos and G,

Often the "official" version of what happened may have been written quickly immediately after the debriefings. Often by one or two information officers that have to go through and make sense of all of the conflicting accounts and information. On top of that, we are talking about mechanical typewriters, carbon paper and fumble-fingered typists (such as myself) that make mistakes that are hard to correct. I have seen many official records where the names of the pilots and crews are misspelled or wrong. Aircraft numbers that are incorrect, sometime just off by a digit, sometime way off. And even the target and various IPs incorrect or misspelled so that another location is identified.

Often that kind of mistake is accepted without question by the historian and repeated. Further compounded by later historians that are lazy or sloppy in their research and use the printed accounts of other authors rather than the original records.

Then there are proofreading, editing, typesetting & printing steps that can all allow small or even large errors to creap into a publication. (We won't mention the efforts of some authors, publishers and editors to emphasize a particular version of an account to create contoversy and increase sales.) There are ALWAYS personal biases and viewpoints that also color an account. I am more prone to accept certain information over other information, all things being equal, etc.

No, I am not defending the authors, just noting why it is best to go back to the original sources whenever possible. An try to be as objective of their interpretation.

G is correct, some sources are more valid than others as are some testimony. The challenge is determining which is which.

"Take what you want...."

Ken

Ken Alexander
Son of 1st Lt. Clair B. Alexander Jr.
Pilot, B-24s: 10/12/1944 - 04/24/1945
15th AF, 49th Wing, 461st BG, 764th BS
Torretta Airfield, Cerignola, Italy

Ken,
I fully understand/understood the "Big Picture".I think you have seen my previous posts on what transpired so I wont repeat myself in this reply.The Major erred in his report that his wingman John was shot down in the second flack attack,when in reality he had to have been shot down in the first flack attact.Both attacks on return from mission.With info gleaned from this forum I have accepted the Majors error was caused by the so-called heat of the battle.Weather conditions,the loss of two pilots and the possible loss of his wingman.
What is difficult to accept is un-researched info put into book form.If my "Friend" was lost on a mission and I was writing a book including him,I'd make darn sure I knew that what I was writing about was factual and not Hollywood'ish.Both books came out in 05 and it's plain and simple,the authors did not do their homework,and there is no excuse for it. 

Fair Winds and following seas.
John, (GM 3/C USS Frost DE 144)

Kin to LT. John W. Farnkopf
15th AAF, 52 FG, 4th FS; Madna, Italy
MIA 11/11/44 remains found 12/8/53

it's plain and simple,the authors did not do their homework,and there is no excuse for it.

Janos,

I agree 100 Percent.

Ken

Ken Alexander
Son of 1st Lt. Clair B. Alexander Jr.
Pilot, B-24s: 10/12/1944 - 04/24/1945
15th AF, 49th Wing, 461st BG, 764th BS
Torretta Airfield, Cerignola, Italy

bjsassy,
 
Scrolling back through this thread, I noticed your question about the 'killer' nickname.  Killer Kane was a character in  a 1939 Buck Rogers film.  I believe it became common to refer to those named Kane as "killer".  There was also a "Killer" Kane that was fighter squadron commander aboard Enterprise, I think VF-10 without checking.

Ken,
Thank you.The book I look forward to is Major Combs " The Mickey Men".That is, if a higher authority doesnt say it's time for my dirt nap. I sincerely believe she is doing her home work.My wifes cousin was a "Mickey" repairman in the 455th BG.The most I ever got out of him is that he flew 4 missions, one to Russia.A ground repairman flying missions??. 

Fair Winds and following seas.
John, (GM 3/C USS Frost DE 144)

Kin to LT. John W. Farnkopf
15th AAF, 52 FG, 4th FS; Madna, Italy
MIA 11/11/44 remains found 12/8/53

To answer a few questions about the Ploesti Mission.
Gen Ent died of injuries sustaned in a B-25 crash, when his copilot pulled up the wheels too soon, causing the plane to hit the ground and the prop to breakoff and come through the flight deck, which eventually led to Ent's death.  This was told to me by his nephew , who was also named Uzal.  Compton died a few years ago after serving the the air Force for many years, He landed a B-24 in a water ditching exercise for the Army air force, which you can see in some B-24 films.  He also went on to set a non stop speed  record from LA to Chicago. I think  he did this in an F-86 .  I talked to Compton a couple of times about the mission.  His recall favored him, and he was incorrect about the 93rd, saying that they did not turn when they did towards  Ploesti or they would have had to go through the 376th formation, over or under the 376th, because the 93rd was on the right of the 376th. As told to me by other 93rd'ers, the 376th was so far ahead of the 93rd that is was quite easy for the 93rd to make the turn towards Ploesti.
Lynn Hester, the bombardier on Comptons plane told me that he didn't drop his bombs, as they were jetisoned from the flight deck.  Compton did in fact drop the bombs from the flight deck, and dropped them right through the bomb bay doors.  Compton told me this. I received a picture from one of Compton's crew showing this after they landed. I sent it to Sternfels who put it in his book, Burning Hitler's Black Gold.  Compton was to have been in a bar somewhere a fter the war and ran into someone of importance when he asked this person if he thought he(Compton) screwed up the mission.  This person's reply was YES!
These and other questions about persons who flew the Ploesti mission and different aspects of the mission are in the archives on the Tidal-Wave website postings.
Compton was in fact leading the 376th on the Ploesti Mission, and  not Flavelle, as written in a couple of the Ploesti books.
Last but not least, Howard Wicklund told me that he made the error at the wrong IP, and was navigating by ETA, and missed the correct turn.  He told me this before Compton died.  Harold said this was all written down in his log book, which was left in Africa when he was shipped back to the states. I wonder?
That's it for now.
dkj93rd
 

Michael Hill didn't do all of the research he should have for his book Black Sunday.  Several of the Tidal Wave historians  have noted this on the TW site.  Hill made many errors.  One of his biggest was barrowing, verbatim, from the pages of the Dugan/Stewart book. He came on another B-24 site a few  years ago stating he was making corrections to BS, and it would be reprinted. So far, NOT SO. Add one more error in his judgement.
dkj93rd

Maj Combs
 I see that  post # 46 you make note that the First Ploesti is a starting point for THE MICKEY MEN. That I find interesting is that many veterans of the low level ploesti mission would go on to serve in the 482nd BG. The First Pathfinder group had a  number of 93rd members. Ready and Willing skipper from the 330th sq was John R Roche ,known as Packy Roche. He would go on to command the B-24 group, Howard Hinchman flew as co-pilot with Herrel Ford in Satans Angels would become pilot to one of the first hand picked crews. Howards navigator Clarence Bill Neumann having to sit out  Ploesti on the ground because their Commander Addison E Baker flew their ship (HELLS WENCH) would become one of the original Pathfinder Navigators of the 482nd and go on to work as Mickey instructor after his tour of duty.
 Also my uncle Joe Avendano ,pilot of DOGPATCHRAIDERS  would join the 482nd after his #30 missions, as their group  Operation Officer.
 Packy Roche ,Howard Hinchman, Bill Neumann are all still with us.
 
Joe Avendano Duran

All people commenting on this thread--- On most combay missions, especially the low level Poesti raid, Murphys Law is in effect "Whatever can go wrong, will go wrong at the worst possible time"

Jules Horowitz, B-17 pilot, 99th BG, 50 missions/sorties
My tour was from 7/19/43-2/13/44

Gentlemen,  This thread has been one of the most informative and passionate ones I'e been into lately!  I also have a question about the crew members who accomplished their mission, but whose AC's were damaged to the point that they crashed soon after.  How was it that those who fell into the hands of Princess Catherine Caradja, within Nazi controlled Romania, faired so well without little "real" interference from either the nazis or their puppets up until their rescue?  Are there any survivors or "oral narratives" remaining from this aspect of the Ploesti  raid?  I again basically referred back to "Ploesti, Black Sunday" as a reference.  Have a great and reflective Memorial weekend!   "They are not forgotten."  Steven

Attached Image(s)

Best Regards!
Steven P. Puhl
Willow Run Historian (RET.)
"Home of 8685 Ford Built Liberators"
Life Member: Yankee Air Museum

Good morning, Gentlemen,      I've just been re-reading all of the "posts" both here and the one started by "Propwash" on the 01AU43 Ploesti low level raid, and I keep turning over in my mind Andy's comment in Post #12.  My paraphrase would be "even the best laid plans of mice and men..."  Coincidently, I've just received a copy of Jay Stout's 2003 book "Fortress Ploesti: the Campaign to Destroy Hitler's Oil."  Anyone familiar with it?  Hope I didn't miss it mentioned somewhere in the posts.      steven 

Best Regards!
Steven P. Puhl
Willow Run Historian (RET.)
"Home of 8685 Ford Built Liberators"
Life Member: Yankee Air Museum

Regarding a few comments made regarding Philip Ardery.  In his 1978 book Bomber Pilot, Ardery devotes 12 pages to the Ploesti raid.  He mentions the navigation screw up but makes no attempt to give an opinion about it.  Guess by the time of the July 2001 article he felt he needed to clarify his feelings on the matter.  Also, in the book Ardery states that he was the one who had requested the Medal of Honor for Pete Hughes.  That Wood turned him down and that General Ent heard about the citation that Ardery had written from a third party.
 
Hal

My father, Donald Grimes, flew in the Ploesti raids. He is from Sheridan Wyoming, in failing health, and I would like to hear from anyone who might remember him.
Thanks so much.
Nancy Stranger

Nancy - Do you know what Group he was in? Any other info ?
Mike

Nancy,
 
I see that your father, T/Sgt Donald J. Grimes, was with the 93rd Bomb Group when he participated in the 1 Aug 1943 raid on Ploesti. He is pictured with Chuck Merrill's "Thar She Blows" crew on page 217 of "Ted's Travelling Circus". He had flown 24 missions with Merrill and needed one more to complete his tour. On 13 August he flew with  Alva Geron's crew to Wiener Neustadt as a fill-in radio operator. Geron had to feather one engine over the target and lost power in another and landed in Switzerland where the crew was interned. The U. S. Embassy in Bern needed a communications man and Grimes fit the bill. He was discharged and sworn in as a State Department civilian employee and this miffed the Swiss authorities. He was in civvies for 18 months, holed up in the best hotels as a courier with electronic expertise.  He reported each new arrival of U.S. aircraft from England and North Africa bases and later from Italy.
This all from "Ted's Travelling Circus".
 
Give your dad my regards and thanks for his service.
 
Vic

Vic Walzel, brother of 1st Lt Leland H. Walzel, bombardier with the 93rd Bomb Group, 330th Squadron. KIA 6 March 1944 on his 25th mission.
www.lelandwalzel.150m.com