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Hot!Newbie needs help solving mystery

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junkateria
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Newbie needs help solving mystery

 For the last 20 years I have owned a large framed photo of a WWII flight crew posing in front of their plane. I found it in a thrift shop in Annapolis, Maryland and have proudly hung it on my wall from home to home and state to state. I have always wondered if those determined-looking young men made it home safely. Last night I carefully removed it from the frame and found that the names and jobs of some of the crew were still visible on the borders of the photo.  I've done some research without really knowing what I'm doing and discovered that at least 4 of these men were made pows at the same time. I can only assume their plane went down. But there was a crew of nine so I'm still a long way from finding all their fates. I really want to know more, but need some help. I have some info that I wonder if someone can give me the meaning? A sign in the picture says: "223 CCTS (H) DAAF, Crew no. 7938." Also, the plane seems to be named "Dolly" and there are some large numbers painted above the name, but I have no idea what their significance is: 7585. Does this mean anything to anyone? Any help will be greatly appreciated.
 

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    Steve Birdsall
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    Re:Newbie needs help solving mystery (permalink)
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    An earlier post, http://forum.armyairforces.com/97th-BG-342nd-BS-quotBitter-Bitchquot-Patch-photo-info-and-info-wanted-m223820.aspx, refers to crews "#6267 through #6322" being at Dyersburg with the 223rd in June 1944, so crew 7938 would have been there some time after that. You need to post the photo.
    junkateria
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    Thanks for the replies! For starters, the pilot is Lt Don Ringsred. I've figured out this is 99% certainly 2nd Lt.Norwood Donald Ringsred (Q&778571-not sure why there is a letter and an & in his number, but got it from the National Archives). He was a POW. I sent a message to his daughter on facebook for confirmation on my identification and asked if she might have any information for me. I haven't heard back yet. The co-pilot is Lt. George Armer. I have a possible match, but can't find any more documents to verify or fill in the details (possibly 15119417). The next man is unknown. The photo border has been torn off. My 4th man is perhaps Ed Harry or scratch the Ed and make Harry the first name and the surname unknown. Number 5 is 1st gunner Hanssen. It is almost a certainty he is John P. Hanssen (36691755) because he shares the same date of becoming or being reported as a POW (3/12/45) as others in this crew. Sixth is engineer Donald Hoth (17153249). On his entry on the POW list I got the added info that he was in Sweden as a POW or when he was captured. The others just said European theater. Seventh is Donald De Vries, tail gunner (36888328). He also was a POW and died in 2002. Number 8 is Harry Peeler, radio operator. Number 9 is Francis-the rest is illegible. And that's all I know about my guys, but I'm so excited to finally become more acquainted with them.
     
    As for the plane, I studied the photo closely to try to identify it, but I know nothing about planes. It is a heavy bomber and seems to have 2 props on each wing. It's kind of hard to see well, but the nose seems to be glass. And of course it takes a crew of 9. It seems to most match the B-29 superfortress, but that's a barely educated guess. 
     
    My "real" computer is in the shop and this old one I use just to get by is not playing nice with my printer, so I can't scan the photo in right now. I'll work with it tomorrow and try to get it uploaded. It's larger than 81/2 x 11, so it may be in 2 pieces, but I will get it up asap. 
     
    Thanks for your help and interest!
     
    Dinah
    junkateria
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    Re:Newbie needs help solving mystery (permalink)
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    This is going to sound completely stupid, but I see by Steve's post that the sign in the picture (223 CCTS (H) DAAF) means they are with the 223rd. Someone please spell this out to me. The 223rd what? And what does the rest of it mean? AAF is great, but they throw a D in front of it and I have no clue. Remember I just started this yesterday!=:) Thanks guys!
     
    Dinah
    Joost de Raaf
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    Re:Newbie needs help solving mystery (permalink)
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    from B-17 master log by Dave Osbourne :
     
    44-8577            Del Cheyenne 27/10/44; Hunter 28/11/44; Dow Fd 12/12/44; Ass 325BS/92BG [NV-M] Podington 20/1/45; 407BS [PY-M]; b/d Swinemunde, Ger 12/3/45 w/Norwood Ringsred, Leo Bleifer, Harry Machie, Theo Fossberg, Don Hoth, John Johnson, Francis Johnson, John Hanssen, Don DeVries, Horace Bayless  (10INT); mech fault, f/l Bulltofta, Swed; MACR 13093. Rep & ret UK 27/6/45; RetUS Bradley 21/7/45; RFC Kingman 10/12/45.
     
    Don't think it matches the B-17 in your picture though. but Norwood Ringsred, Hoth, Hanssen, De Vries are mentioned.
    Must admit I am not sure but believe CCTS means Combat Crew Training Squadron?
     
    post edited by joost900 -
    Ivo de Jong
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    Re:Newbie needs help solving mystery (permalink)
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    The large number 7585 on the nose of the B-17 refers to its serial number: 43-37585. This was a training aircraft, assigned to Dyersburg Army Air Field ("DAAF"), where indeed the 223rd Combat Crew Training Squadron was located. As Joost indicated the photo is of the Ringsted crew, which after completing their training at Dyersburg (and taking this photo there....) was eventually assigned to the 92nd Bomb Group at Podington. On March 12, 1945 they landed their B-17G 44-8577 at Bulltofta field in Sweden and were interned.
    Hope this helps.
    Ivo de Jong
    tonystro
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    Re:Newbie needs help solving mystery (permalink)
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    As joost900 mentioned, men were aboard B-17G, 44-8577, 325th Bomb Squadron of 92nd Bomb Group, when on 12 Mar 45 it had the bombs fall through the bomb bay doors, which had failed to open.  Damage extent included failure of one engine. 
     
    Lt. Ringsred was able to reach Malmo, Sweden and successfully complete an emergency (crash) landing. De Vries status is unclear from information in the MACR folder, but remainder of the crew were interned in Sweden until late June when they returned to the U.S.
     
    Attached are scan of front and section 17 on rear of Missing Air Crew Report; MACR 13093,
     
    (edited to replace duplicate front image with section 17 image)
    post edited by tonystro -

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    Tony Strotman, MSgt (ret.), USAF
    Son of T/Sgt Francis E. Strotman, Engineer-Gunner,
    491st Bm Sq / 341st Bm Gp (M), Yangkai, China
    "USAAF in CBI Tribute" http://www.usaaf-in-cbi.com
    RSwank
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    Re:Newbie needs help solving mystery (permalink)
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    MACR 13093 for B-17G 44-8577 has the loss of this crew.  They were from the 92nd BG, 325th BS on a mission to Sweinmunde on 12 March 45.  The plane had a problem during the bomb run and ended up dropping its bombs through the unopened bomb bay doors.   They also lost the  #1 engine completely and a 2nd engine was running rough so they diverted to Sweden.   The entire crew was interned and later returned.
    Pilot:  Norwood D Ringsred
    CP: Leo L Bleifer
    Nav:  Harry J Machle
    Bomb:  Theodore B Fossberg
    TopT:  Donald Hoth
    BallT:  Francis B Johnson
    WaistG:  John P Hanssen
    TailG:  Donald M DeVries
    RO:   John R Johnson
    RadarBomb: Horace W Bayless
     
    In the statements made after the war, it was noted that DeVries contracted Polio a week after being interned.  
        .......Looks like Joost and Tony beat me but I will leave this post as it mentions something about DeVries.
    post edited by RSwank -
    junkateria
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    Re:Newbie needs help solving mystery (permalink)
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    Wow! I knew I needed the MACR but didn't know the plane's number, so was at a complete loss. I am almost stunned at how quickly you guys found the information I was looking for.  So, if they dropped the bombs without the bomb bay doors being open, did they realize they weren't open? Even with my limited knowledge I think they were up close and personal with the doors and would have known. Or were they supposed to open automatically as the bombs fell? Or, was this a case of completing the mission no matter what? Or did they need to get the weight out of the plane for some reason?
     
    It also seems that some of my guys were not part of the crew that was taken prisoner. Would it have been usual for crew members to be transferred to another crew? I'm wondering if maybe something more likely happened to them already before the crash mission. (Crossing my fingers not) Any tips on finding info on them? (And thanks for giving me Francis' last name!)
     
    You have no idea how excited I am by all of this. Thank you so much! I just can't can't tell you how happy I am to be learning the story I've wondered about for 20 years.
     
    Dinah
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    Re:Newbie needs help solving mystery (permalink)
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    Dinah,

    In post #5 you asked the meaning of DAAF. Appears you assume the AAF means Army Air Force but in this case it actuallly means Army Air Field. The D is the first letter of the location of that field. Don't have my reference book at hand at the moment to tell you what it means.

    Interesting comment above about dropping the bomb load through the bomb bay doors of a B17. Have heard of doing that in a B24 but the doors in a B17 are so much more substantial, I've just never heard of dropping them through the doors on a B17.

    Hal
     
    OOPS, I now see that Ivo identified DAAF in post #7.  Sorry.
    post edited by LUCKY PARTNERS -
    RSwank
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    Re:Newbie needs help solving mystery (permalink)
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    Dinah,
    I think the picture you have is of the crew when they were in (or completing) training.  Crews did not always stay together for all their missions once in combat.  Sometimes people were injured or sick or killed.   Sometimes people (particularly officers) may have gotten promoted and moved up.  Co-pilots become pilots and got their "own" crews, etc. 
     
    Regarding the bomb bay doors,  they should have been opened by the bombardier once they started the bomb run.  He may have "pushed the button" or "turned the switch" but their was some sort of  failure and the doors failed to open.  Perhaps he forget to open the doors (although you would think there would have been some sort of "fail-safe" that would not have allowed him to drop the bombs without at least some sort of warning or override.)   Perhaps some of the bombardiers on the site will comment on this point.    I think I read somewhere that the doors were designed to "force open" in a case like this, but it sounds like these bombs crashed through the closed doors.
    Looking at the names you first posted, I think we still have questions about:
    Harry Peeler
    George Armer
    did I miss anyone?
    post edited by RSwank -
    junkateria
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    Oh my goodness! I just went to order a copy of the microfiche of the MACR and was quite surprised at the steep price tag! I can barely make out the posting above and when I try to zoom in it becomes a jumble of ink blobs. Can anyone suggest where I might be able to see it a bit better? I would really like to see the original document. 
     
    Yes, Harry Peeler is still a mystery. I can find no info at all. I tried using Henry and Harrison as the first name. I'm not sure what else Harry could be a nickname for. 
     
    George Armer is also an unknown. I did find a George Armer in the Air Corps, but he was a pvt., not Lt. I have to stay open to the idea that that is a typo until I get confirmation one way or the other I think. Also, RSwank has a good point that George may have been promoted to pilot and gotten his own crew. I still want to know more and will keep looking. Any advice is appreciated.
     
    My other 2 unidentifieds are a completely unknown and a Harry (not sure if this is the 1st or last name). There are 2 new names when the plane goes down. One of them is a Harry J. Machle, navigator. So, I found my Harry, right? Well, I'm not so sure. As the navigator, Machle would out-rank the bombadier, Theodore B. Fossberg, right? But, in my picture, Harry is in the 4th position and has on a cap which looks like some kind of beret. It's different than all the other caps in the photo, but I admit it might be the lighting and camera angle. In the 3rd position is who would then have to be the bombadier, Fossberg (or whatever bombadier was with them at that time), wearing an officer's cap. I'm not sure I explained my idea well. What I'm saying is that in 3rd position is an officer and 4th position is someone a bit different from the officers and the rest of the crew, probably the bombadier. The navigator (should be an officer before a bombadier would be, right?) should be in 3rd position (where there is an officer), but Harry's name is in 4th position under the guy with the mystery cap. Am I over-thinking this? 
     
    Thank you so much guys!
     
    Dinah
    RSwank
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    Re:Newbie needs help solving mystery (permalink)
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    Dinah, I will send you a PM regarding the MACR.
    25Kingman49
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    Re:Newbie needs help solving mystery (permalink)
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    24 pages on fold3 http://www.fold3.com/image/#29442901 
     
    Scott
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    Re:Newbie needs help solving mystery (permalink)
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    Diana,
     
    The images posted in post #8 by Tony are just thumbnails.  Left click on the image to open it up.  You can then download the enlarged image by right clicking on it.  Still not going to be crystal clear but that's all you'd get even if you ordered the microfiche.
    Attached are pages 2 and 3 from that report.  As Scott mentions the full report is 24 pages.
    It might be helpful to the conversation if you could scan and post your photo.
    Regarding your question in post #13, the Navigator and the Bombardier were frequently of the same rank.
    Hal
    post edited by LUCKY PARTNERS -

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    mbee53
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    Re:Newbie needs help solving mystery (permalink)
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    The 223rd AAF Base Unit (Combat Crew Training Station, Heavy) was located at Dyersburg Army Air Field, Tennessee.  This is the unit they are referring to.

    Mark
    Steve Birdsall
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    According to Scott Hochstein, "Dyersburg was home to the 346th and later 223rd Combat Crew Training School. The School produced over 1,000 B-17 crews during its operational life."
    junkateria
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    Re:Newbie needs help solving mystery (permalink)
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    Hi, guys!
     
    So my question in post 12 regarding the bombadier vs navigator based on one being an officer is really a non-issue and Harry J. Machle is really my guy. Is that pretty much the consensus?  
     
    As I wrote earlier, I'm using an old, cantankerous computer while mine is in the shop and it's not wanting to work with my scanner. I'm going to give it another go and hopefully the photo will be attached to my next post.
     
    Thank you for all the MACR info. I haven't had time to look into it yet.
     
    By the way, I live in Tennessee and looked up Dyersburg's website to see if they have an historical society that might have a small museum or something pertaining to the airfield, but found no information. It seems like there should be something. Does anyone know of anything? 
     
    Dinah
    Steve Birdsall
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    Re:Newbie needs help solving mystery (permalink)
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    Your best hope is probably Forgotten Fields of America, Volume III, by Lou Thole. I believe he can be contacted at Tarplane@aol.com.
    jmcadory
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    Re:Newbie needs help solving mystery (permalink)
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    The Veterans Museum is located at the site of DAAF and might have what you are looking for, their website is: http://www.dyaab.us/
     
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