I was looking at my father's self kept mission log. He flew missions (as a gunner) with the 348th from November 44 through April 45.
 
I'm now familiar with most of the Target abbreviations that he used (M/Y- Marshalling Yard, A/D- Airfield, O/R- Oil Refinery etc), but am puzzled by one.
 
He lists their mission on Vienna Austria (2/15/45) as against a F/Y. I was guessing "Freight Yard", but he uses M/Y everywhere else where (I believe) a rail freight yard would be appropriate. I assume "M/Y" to be "freight marshalling yard".
 
Am I missing something on "M/Y"? Is it not a freight marshalling area? Does anyone have an idea on the abbreviation "F/Y"?
 
Secondly, his log lists their target on 1/4/45 as Grado Italy. Dick Drain's "History of the 5th", lists the target for that day as Verona, Italy. 
 
Could one have been primary and the other secondary? They are in the same general geographic area.
 
The same thing popped up on 2/1/45, where the Drain book lists Vienna, Austria as the target and his log lists Graz, Austria.
 
Any ideas?
     

Tom Welch
Son of S/Sgt R.B. (Bud) Welch
B-17 Ball Turret Gunner,
29 missions 11/44-4/45
348th BS, 99th BG, 5th Wing, 15th AAF

ORIGINAL: TWelch

I was looking at my father's self kept mission log. He flew missions (as a gunner) with the 348th from November 44 through April 45.

I'm now familiar with most of the Target abbreviations that he used (M/Y- Marshalling Yard, A/D- Airfield, O/R- Oil Refinery etc), but am puzzled by one.

He lists their mission on Vienna Austria (2/15/45) as against a F/Y. I was guessing "Freight Yard", but he uses M/Y everywhere else where (I believe) a rail freight yard would be appropriate. I assume "M/Y" to be "freight marshalling yard".

Am I missing something on "M/Y"? Is it not a freight marshalling area? Does anyone have an idea on the abbreviation "F/Y"?

Secondly, his log lists their target on 1/4/45 as Grado Italy. Dick Drain's "History of the 5th", lists the target for that day as Verona, Italy. 

Could one have been primary and the other secondary? They are in the same general geographic area.

The same thing popped up on 2/1/45, where the Drain book lists Vienna, Austria as the target and his log lists Graz, Austria.

Any ideas?
    

Tom,
You are probably right about the F/Y being M/Y. M/Y is definately marshalling yards which would also include freight cars.
I went to Verona in Feb'44, I'm not familiar with Grado, it could very well be an alternate, since Verona might have been overcast. The weather in that area could be quite bad in the winter.
The Vienna area had many many important targets. I went to Weiner Neustadt twice, 40 miles south of Vienna, our target were fighter factories. That whole area was a very, very hot area.
During my time they would send up 100+ fighters and very heavy flack. My 1st trip to WN was from Tunis N.Africa over 1900miles ,13+hours flight time.
I can't comment on Vienna re Graz

Jules Horowitz, B-17 pilot, 99th BG, 50 missions/sorties
My tour was from 7/19/43-2/13/44

Tom,
Maybe someone on this forum can attest to the validity of the info in Dick Drains book. If he has a good track record, your dad's log may be wrong.  

Fair Winds and following seas.
John, (GM 3/C USS Frost DE 144)

Kin to LT. John W. Farnkopf
15th AAF, 52 FG, 4th FS; Madna, Italy
MIA 11/11/44 remains found 12/8/53

John:
 
I know that it wasn't intended as a knock on my father, but I'll admit to feeling a little offended by your answer. 
 
I don't believe that Dick's information is wrong. I don't believe that I suggested that it might be.  I like Dick and greatly appreciate all the hard work that he has done and is doing to keep the incredible things done by this generation alive..... And if I ever thought he did have incorrect information, I would bring that to him privately, not post it.   
 
But I also don't believe that my Dad didn't know what he was writing or where he was flying. I know he woudln't have taken time to keep a log and then haphazardly put incorrect information into it.
 
That's why I'm asking here about the idea of secondary targets. It seems reasonable to me, but I'm hoping that others that were there can tell me whether it's a reasonable explanation or whether there is a better one. Not having been there, I really don't know.
 
 

Tom Welch
Son of S/Sgt R.B. (Bud) Welch
B-17 Ball Turret Gunner,
29 missions 11/44-4/45
348th BS, 99th BG, 5th Wing, 15th AAF

Hold up a second Tom,
You posed a question in my eyes as to who was right and who was wrong. If your dad was correct that they went to a secondary target, then Dick Drain is wrong. If they did not, than your dad erred. As to putting something down on paper in war time conditions and saying it is the gospel because my dad said so??. Example; A Major signed his name to a MACR saying his wingman  (my wifes brother)  was shot down in a specific area and 9+ yrs it was found that he was'nt even close. Most REAL Historian books are factual, but not all of them are perfect. I dont know either Dick Drain or your father and would not say or imply anything derogartory about either one, and if you took it as such, that is your problem not mine. Your a newby here and you dont shoot the mesenger because you dont like the message. I am always available at a PM for further discussion. I had to explain myself to your reply and dont wish to lower myself and sully up your original post, out of due respect to your dad.

Fair Winds and following seas.
John, (GM 3/C USS Frost DE 144)

Kin to LT. John W. Farnkopf
15th AAF, 52 FG, 4th FS; Madna, Italy
MIA 11/11/44 remains found 12/8/53

Tom,
As an after thought, an answer to this would have to come from a knowledgeable person. The weather being bad, one or more flights broke away from the main body of the mission and selected secondary targets. If that being the case, your father and Dick Drain were correct. I dont know if one bomber would break of by it's self other than if it was experiencing mechanical problems.

Fair Winds and following seas.
John, (GM 3/C USS Frost DE 144)

Kin to LT. John W. Farnkopf
15th AAF, 52 FG, 4th FS; Madna, Italy
MIA 11/11/44 remains found 12/8/53

John, and Tom....it is also very possible that something happened that an aircraft was seperated from the original formation, and joined another BG bombing a different target other than what was briefed for...ask Jules...he mentions joining the 2nd BG with a brand new B-17 with no markings, and dropping bombs with them...only finding out later in talking with a member of the 2nd BG,  that the 2nd BG  had orders to shoot him down, if he did not drop his bombs with them.
 
Strange things happen in the stress of war.
 
Now to answer the question....on the dates indicated....I agree with Jules on the 2-15-45 mission as to the F/Y against the M/Y.
 
On the other seemingly discrepancies...as the flight engineer, I did not attend the pre-mission breifing, so, my information was obtained from my navigator......perhaps he misunderstood the information told to him by his navigator. IF I did not write it down,...and all of my information was written down AFTER the mission was over, I had a difficult time even pronouncing the target names, let alone trying to find them on a map.
So,  in my opinion there is ample room  for confusion.
 
The mission on the other date mentioned, 4 Jan 45, for the 99th WAS to Verona,Italy to the M/Y...the 2nd BG went to Porto Nuovo, Italy M/Y.   
 
Also, as a gunner, (at least on my crew), the only gunner who attended the pre-mission briefing was the radio operator...the rest of the gunners were assembling the guns for the mission, checking the ammo supplies, and generally loading the aircraft with their gear.
 
Jim :-)

James S. Peters Sr. T/Sgt
B-17 Flt Engr, 27 missions
99 BG, 348BS, 5th Wing, 15th AAF
Tortorella, (Foggia#2), Italy
My Tour was from 12/03/44-06/19/45
M/Sgt USAF (Retired)

John:
 
You are correct, I am new to this site, and have nowhere near the number of posts that you do. Having read much of what you've written here, I'll be the first to admit that you have way more WWII/AAF knowlege than I do. And since my only chance of bringing my questions to "the source", if you will, died more than 14 years ago, I'll continue to ask my questions here. It is such a wonderful site. I wish that my father had lived long enough to participate himself. He would have enjoyed it.     
 
Please understand that if I had believed that the only or even the most reasonable explanation was that Dick Drain's records were incorrect or that my father's log was, I would never have posted the question. I would have asked Mr. Drain directly.   
 
And you are absolutely right that my issue with your response " is my problem not yours". I posted the question and any answer is a fair one. I should not have "barked" like I did when I didn't like your response. I'm not posting to make a name for myself on the site. I'm looking for answers to questions and I don't want to discourge anyone from replying when I am asking for help. 
 
Having said all that I'll still admit that I didn't like your answer. It suggested to me that the only logical explanation was that one record or the other was incorrect. I was searching for another explanation.  Maybe there isn't one. 
 
In the future, I will be much more careful when asking questions that I may not like the answer to, and in how I respond if I see them.    
 
Tom Welch

In looking elsewhere online ( http://www.usaaf.net/chron/  ), I found an indication that both Graz and Vienna were attacked on 2/1/45 by the 15th. I understand that does not mean the 99th, but is it possible that they weren't scheduled to go up, but flew to fill in for planes within other BGs heading for Graz?
 
"(Fifteenth Air Force): In Austria, 300+ B-17s and B-24s attack the Moosbierbaum oil refinery and the marshalling yards at Graz, Furstenfeld, and Klagenfurt. 1 bomber bombs Pula, Yugoslavia. P-38s and P-51s fly 270+ sorties escorting the bombers; other P-38s carry out reconnaissance and reconnaissance escort missions. " 
 
Also on 1/4/45, there were 7 targets in the FRIULI VENEZIA GIULIA area of Italy, (which includes Verona). Grado is not mentioned, but nearby areas are. They had been weathered in" for several days prior and appeared to put a lot of aircraft up that day. Again, I'm wondering the same question as on 2/1. Could they have flown with another BG, or did that not happen (often)?
 
(Fifteenth Air Force): In Italy, 370+ B-24s and B-17s bomb marshalling yards at Verona, Bronzolo, Vicenza, Padua, Trento, and Bolzano, and station sidings at Trento; 200+ fighters accompany the bombers; 54 P-38s attempt high-level bombing of Cismon del Grappa but fail to hit the target. 9 B-24s drop supplies in Yugoslavia. P-38s and P-51s fly reconnaissance and escort operations.
 
Is anyone familiar with this site (Jack McKillop's Combat Chronology of World War II)?   

Tom Welch
Son of S/Sgt R.B. (Bud) Welch
B-17 Ball Turret Gunner,
29 missions 11/44-4/45
348th BS, 99th BG, 5th Wing, 15th AAF

Sorry the link broke. It is:
 
www.usaaf.net/chron/index.htm
 
 
If it doesn't work this time, we can chalk it up to my technical computer illiteracy. It is google searchable using  "Jack McKillop's Combat Chronology of World War II".  

Tom Welch
Son of S/Sgt R.B. (Bud) Welch
B-17 Ball Turret Gunner,
29 missions 11/44-4/45
348th BS, 99th BG, 5th Wing, 15th AAF

Tom ,
I respect your reply to the fullest. For your sake I still hope that someone with the knowledge will step forward and say, yes, it is possible that a flight broke off for whatever reason and selected a target of opportunity. I have seen in the AAF chronologies differences in bombing targets as to flight logs. 
John's FG escorted The 99th on different missions. Do you have specific dates and missions for Nov.44?. 

Good luck in your search and by all means hang in there.

Fair Winds and following seas.
John, (GM 3/C USS Frost DE 144)

Kin to LT. John W. Farnkopf
15th AAF, 52 FG, 4th FS; Madna, Italy
MIA 11/11/44 remains found 12/8/53

Tom,
 
I don't question either your dad's log or Dick Drains reports. I know Drain quite well, although I have't seen him for several years. I know that he spent many hours in Wash D.C. and at Maxwell field amassing his records from official reports. I would agree with Janos that it's quite possible that the group got messed up due to weather and that a sqdn went to Prado, it is also possible that your dad's plane became separated from all the other planes and decided to return to base and was  in the vicinity of Prado (I have no idea where it is) and bombed some worth while target. My tentmate had that experience, he dropped his bombs all by himself on an A/D destroying some enemy planes, he earned a DFC for it.

Jules Horowitz, B-17 pilot, 99th BG, 50 missions/sorties
My tour was from 7/19/43-2/13/44

Tom,
Fueled by Jules reply, I think alternate targets is the answer. I checked the map against John's records and Grado and Graz are both in or near the flight path north from Italy. Speaking for the fighters, (bombers must have been nearby). Out to the Adriatic north over the Udine Valley, at this point on return the 52FG started decent to base, Grado is in the path or very close to it and Graz in Austria would be south west of Viena also in line with main target. This route was also the return. It makes sense to have the alternate targets near or enroute to the main target.

Fair Winds and following seas.
John, (GM 3/C USS Frost DE 144)

Kin to LT. John W. Farnkopf
15th AAF, 52 FG, 4th FS; Madna, Italy
MIA 11/11/44 remains found 12/8/53