Missing Insignia

Looking for help locating the following unit insignia;

2d CmbtCrgGrp
5th CmbtCrgSqdn
8th CmbtCrgSqdn

Like to hear from anyone who might be able to shed
some light on these missing images.

Thanks,
Bob

Bob: It appearas that none of those units had an approved insignia. All are listed as "Emblem: None" in the official work by Maurer Maurer. Some of the other Combat Cargo squadrons do have an insignia.

Roger that on the Maurer work Bill.

What I'm hoping to do is see if I can track down any unauthorized
insignia designs that might have been displayed by one or more
of these units.

If you come across anything I'd appreciate you're getting back
to me with any and all information.

Blue skies.
Bob

Combat Units and Combat Squadrons are not the best sources for an "Emblem: None" entry.  A number of emblems were approved during WW II for the eighty-odd squadrons that were allotted to the National Guard in 1946.  The regular AF with regards to ANG historical materials pretty much takes a hands-off approach and many of these emblems are omitted in Combat Squadrons.  If you can find a copy of Fahey's Army and Air Force Fighters, you can see several of these.
 
In the early 1990s, the Chief of Staff of the USAF took a personal interest in emblems, changing some of the rules.  Among the changes he made was replacing some newer emblems with WW II emblems.  In some cases, this was done officially and in others the old emblems were adopted as "heritage" emblems.  Some of these were emblems that were not listed in Combat Squadrons or Combat Units.  Some had been replaced, but others were listed as "none."
 
Since the early 1990s, USAF emblems have been the responsibility of the historians.  Prior to that date, they were the responsibility of the personnel office, who had less motivation to retain really old files.  Yes, there were many unapproved emblems (my squadron in Viet Nam, for example, used an emblem from 1966-1972 that was never approved -- and under the rules at the time would not have been approved because its primary colors were green, brown, and white instead of blue and gold), but the entry that the AFHRA puts in L&H statements "none on file" is more accurate than "none." [/rant]

Bernie Shearon
Push the stick forward, the houses get bigger. Pull the stick back, the houses get smaller (unless you keep pulling -- then they get bigger again)

Bernie,
 
Any idea where to find a approved insignia that is not listed in Maurer?
 
Like this BT-10 of the 409th Attack Sq. (Org. Res.) from Bolling Field, D.C.
 

 
Tom

Bernie,

As much as I appreciate Maurer's efforts with both his Combat Units & Squadrons
works, I have never understood why he included so many post war insignia in volumes dealing with the Second World War. It was this frustrating aspect of these very same
two volumes that first prompted me to begin working on my own series dealing with
the subject of WWII insignia and tactical markings employed by the AAF. In fact whenever
I find myself unable to locate an image for a given group or squadron I never use the term 'None' in my books. Instead I elected to use 'Unknown', simply because even at this late date, long forgotten, often unapproved unit insignia are still surfacing.

As to the use of pre-war insignia, these I incorporate in my Battle Colors series only if
they were officially approved and not preempted by another image.

Thanks for the heads-up on the Fahey book. I'll see if I can locate a copy.

Blue skies,
Bob

I'm sure you've already thought of AFHRA.  However, my impression is that they were better at old emblems in the 1990s than now.  The CD they produced frequently gave approval dates and negative numbers for old emblems, but they do not do this any longer.
 
Also I have seen an emblem (a blue disc, edged white with a white whale with aircraft wings spouting) that claims to be for the 5th Combat Cargo Sq

Bernie Shearon
Push the stick forward, the houses get bigger. Pull the stick back, the houses get smaller (unless you keep pulling -- then they get bigger again)

Bernie,

If this is the insignia design you were referring to,
I'm still trying to confirm it's use during WWII.

Bob

Attached Image(s)

Bob:  I did check further and have found an insignia for the 2nd Combat Cargo Squadron (attached). It is one of hundreds of painstaking hand drawn pen and ink insignias that were produced over the years for the American Society of Military Insignia Collectors. This early issue, July/Sept 1969, was edited by Lt. Col. A. A. Littman. It does not have one for the other two. The text may be a little difficult to read as it is a fading Xerox copy so I will type it here: "On a light blue disc edged yellow a hand proper holding five deuces of spades".

Attached Image(s)

Tom:  How did you get that fine BT-10 photo so large and without the heading "Attached image(s)"?  That's the way they used to be.

Tom: I forgot to mention that I have that photo or a similar one and have been trying to identify that insignia since 1976.  And I have a note that the plane is Y1BT-10 AC 37-383.

Tom: I thought you might enjoy this closeup photo of the insignia on the Y1BT-10. It's an original by Joe Williams, one of the 616 collectors in the 1930s.

Attached Image(s)

Bob,

NOTE - I misread your original post... i.e., 2nd Combat Cargo GROUP. Sorry. For what its worth the 2nd CC Squadron emblem...

The attached image of the  2nd ComCar Sq emblem was emailed to me many years ago. Unfortunately, I no longer know who sent it and I never verified its authenticity.

(edited to add note)

Attached Image(s)

Tony Strotman, MSgt (ret.), USAF
Son of T/Sgt Francis E. Strotman, Engineer-Gunner,
491st Bm Sq / 341st Bm Gp (M), Yangkai, China
"USAAF in CBI Tribute" http://www.usaaf-in-cbi.com

Anyone happen to know of an authoritative work on
pre-WWII U.S. Air National Guard group/squadron insignia?

Bob