All,

Does anyone know the attack profile for Mickey ships - as part of a formation of aircraft - en route to and at the target?

I would think the radar aircraft wouldn't be leading the formation en route - fighters target the lead aircraft during a head on attack, etc. - but rather would be located somewhere else in the formation en route so as not to draw any undue attention to itself and somewhere before reaching the IP would take over the formation lead so as to guide the formation to the target.

Just wondering....

Andy






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Hi Andy...
I can only answer from a 305th BG perspective.
Missions led by a PFF-H2x equipped B-17 were flown with this a/c as 'Lead' plane of the first leading three plane-lead element. His Deputy PFF-H2x, if the deputy was carrying radar, would ordinarily fly off the lead's starboard wing. Ready to slip into the lead slot if the first H2x-PFF had difficulties or was lost during th mission. I have never heard, in the 305thBG at least, of H2x lead ships flying anything other than the lead position. Yes, the H2x-PFF equipped ships were very crucial to any later missions flown in WW2, but even though perhaps vulnerable in a lead position, to be anywhere else furthe back along the formation would make their task possibly redundent. Lead planes usually carried the Task Force Commander and Lead crew (explained further down posted).
 
In a wider aspect, from 40th CW missions (92,305,306) again, the designated leading heavy bomb group on any given day, would place their H2x PFF ship, and again their Deputy, at the very head of the wing formation.
 
Missions took off from the start with those H2x PFF ships in leading position with the remaining aircraft of the group-wing formating behind it, and remained so throughout mission until return, or unless something tragic happened and they were shot out of position byfighters an/or flak. Thus the Deputy's task of taking over in such a situation.
 
Remember, the ACP 'Air Command Pilot', also known as the 'Task Foce Commander' would in pretty much all circumstances be in that very lead plane in the right seat - with a seasoned Lead Pilot, left seat, flying the mission with him, taking charge of either his group or the wing, or indeed the Air Division.
 
There may be other variations flown from other groups, other Air Forces, theatres of operation, which I'm not aware off? But as I say, from our own personal experiences of missions flown fom Chelveston, this is how the 305th did it.
 
regards
Ian W
 

Ian White - 305th BGMA Hon. Life Associate, UK Contact and Organiser of next years 40th Combat Wing UK Reunion - May 21st-31st 2009

Ian,
 
Got it; thanks.
 
Andy

"I received a 1:72 die cast model of the B-24H Yellow Nosed Monster of the 756thBS/459th BG of the 15th AAF, Giulia Field, Cerignola, Italy as depicted in 1944.  Although detailed to resemble a radar equipped Mickey ship (modified nose) after the A/C had sustained flak damage on a mission, the model carries the flamboyant front fuselage nose art as well as the black and yellow unit checkerboard tail markings and yellow cowling rings."

Ian,  I really enjoyed your post!  I had posted this on the "modeling sub-forum" around Christmas.  My question is: "Weren't the Mickey Ships usually less gawdy?"  It would be really noticeable in formation!  I'm sure there's a good answer.  I've not seen any photos,  Seems like an unusual post, but thought I'd throw it out there.  Best Regards!  Steven


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Best Regards!
Steven P. Puhl
Willow Run Historian  (RET.)  
Home of 8685 Ford B-24 Liberators
Life Member: Yankee Air Museum

Yellow Nosed Monster was the squadron hack and assembly ship.  It was originally a mickey ship, with a nose turret but a radome in place of the ball turret.  The flak damage to the nose caused the plane to be retired as a war-weary.  The new nose was added after the plane was used as a mickey ship.  Somewhere ( I think in the National Archives photo collection) there is an image of ground crews making one of these noses.
 

Bill,  Thanks for the clarification!  I had had it a bit turned around thinking that this was the "nose art motif" of the "mickey" as opposed to the "assembly ship."  I guess I had misunderstood the article I had read early on.  Best Regards!  Steven

Best Regards!
Steven P. Puhl
Willow Run Historian  (RET.)  
Home of 8685 Ford B-24 Liberators
Life Member: Yankee Air Museum

Steven,
Glenn Strong posted photos of the real 'Monster ' in the 459th BG forum, back on Jan 13 2005...the nose art on the model is accurate, but it isn't 'typical' of the 756th BS.
 
I don't understand why the mickey ships were painted gray, for the same reason they would not be gaudy...the last thing I would want is for my mickey ship to look different... 
 
Have a good weekend, Bill

"Normally each wing or group had at least four aircraft designated as Mickey Ships. To distinguish them from other aircraft in a formation, the radar-carrying planes were painted overall gray. ..."
 
Bill,    Here is a partial answer to your question about the B-24 "mickey" ships being painted gray.  I don't believe B-17's were painted gray.  The quote is taken from a post by Ken Alexander, and I have included the "link" to the Thread from August of 2007.  It includes on of the more famous (catastrophic) photo series of a B-24  (mickey ship) going down.  I thought that from the series in the "link" I might be able to answer the original question of the Thread.  Best Regards!  Steven
 
http://forum.armyairforces.com/m_127669/tm.htm
 

Best Regards!
Steven P. Puhl
Willow Run Historian  (RET.)  
Home of 8685 Ford B-24 Liberators
Life Member: Yankee Air Museum

Looking at my notes regarding the 401BG's PFF ships, there was a period where each of the four squadrons had two PFF ships of their own.
One of the four squadrons was stood down on rotation, with the other three flying Lead, High and Low Elements for the mission. There were more PFF-trained crews than aircraft in the Group at the time, and I get the impression that each element may have had a lead and reserve PFF ship for a time. All PFF-equipped aircraft and crews were later concentrated into one of the squadrons.

One other related point that came up was that in late 44, when a Combat Tour was 30 missions, crews who had flown seven or more missions as Lead Crew had their tour reduced to 25 missions. I slightly paraphrase from my source below.
 
"Per General Order xxx:
Lead crews with seven or more credited leads will, after 1 October 1944, be credited with an extra five missions"

Hope that helps,
Paul

Paul Bellamy 

401st BG Association
401st BG Historical Society (UK)
RAF Twinwood Farm Museum

Hi all. First, thanks for cmpliments Steve!
 
Regards likely gawdy markings on lead-Mickey H2x PFF ships. I cant answer for other groups; some have aleady posted comments on here....
 
Regards our own 305thBG; I dont remember having seen or heard of via survivin veterans, of ANY PFF ships of ours beng singled out with additional colouring or indeed 'stand out' artwork. Other than, of course, the usual nicknames-fancy dames, cartoon characters etc. Even then, most, if not all known PFF ships on our group did not having any such names of note.
 
I remember being a part of a posting some time back now, again subject of PFF ships. I scanned and osed an example of a borrowed PFF ship, flown on a mission by a 305th lead crew. The photo showed the aircraft carrying three 1st AD triangles, none of which carried any ID letter. The aircraft I thin came from 351st BG Polebrook. The date of pic was summer of '44, at that time the PFF ship fleet was still in short supply, that is not enough to supply every group with its own PFF abilities. The picture, its beleived, showed this fact, and that the 1st AD groups were sharing a number of such H2x equipped machines. The additional triangles, again allegedly, help to identify it to othr a/c as being the 'Lead' plane.
 
If  can lay my hand on that pic I'll post again!
 
My personal thoughts, for what its worth, is that a PFF lead plane would not ordinarily draw attention to itself by carrying loud markings just for the sake of having them.
 
But as the B-24 shows, there are exceptions!!!
 
Ian W

Ian White - 305th BGMA Hon. Life Associate, UK Contact and Organiser of next years 40th Combat Wing UK Reunion - May 21st-31st 2009

Steven     there were a few grey B-17s in the Fifteenth including the 301 and 463BGs, the latter added their yellow rudder. The actual colour doesn't seem to have been recorded but looks similar to RAF Ocean Grey.
Depends how much it had weathered I suppose                       Nick

I have hesitated to enter this discusion since my memory seems to be at odds with most others.
I flew about my last 10 missions as lead pilot. On one  of these, mine was a mickey ship. I remember
that it had "special" things in the navaigator's area.. I was not specially trained, but I had a Mckey operater
aboard, and he was in charge on the bomb run. The plaine was not, in my reccolection, painted any different than any other. I realize that this is different than other's memories. Remember, I, and others, was only 21 years old then.
But that's my story.
RHD
 

"the last thing I would want is for my mickey ship to look different..." 

Good "Memorial Weekend" morning Nick, Bill, Bob, Ian, Andy and Others!  I quoted this quick line from Bill's post, but it seems as if there are as many opinions as there are "memories."  As to Andy's original post, I think "locations" have been mentioned here to a degree.  I personally found the older link (mentioned in post #8) helpful and interesting.  Best Regards!  Steven 

Best Regards!
Steven P. Puhl
Willow Run Historian  (RET.)  
Home of 8685 Ford B-24 Liberators
Life Member: Yankee Air Museum

ORIGINAL: Ian White

I remember being a part of a posting some time back now, again subject of PFF ships. I scanned and osed an example of a borrowed PFF ship, flown on a mission by a 305th lead crew. The photo showed the aircraft carrying three 1st AD triangles, none of which carried any ID letter. The aircraft I thin came from 351st BG Polebrook. The date of pic was summer of '44, at that time the PFF ship fleet was still in short supply, that is not enough to supply every group with its own PFF abilities. The picture, its beleived, showed this fact, and that the 1st AD groups were sharing a number of such H2x equipped machines. The additional triangles, again allegedly, help to identify it to othr a/c as being the 'Lead' plane.

If  can lay my hand on that pic I'll post again!

Ian W

 
Is this the photo Ian?
 

 
42-97701 "Nadine L" RQ-B, BS-B
H2X aircraft
July 6 1944 assigned to 94th Combat Wing but carried on 351st strength.
Aug. 1 1944 transferred to 509th Sqn.
Feb. 24 1945 transferred to 511th Sqn. as DS-B.
May 6 1945 transferred to 305th BG.
 
Another of the 94th Combat Wing PFF ships:
 

 
42-97649 "Paper Warrior" M
475BG, 748BS.
Transferred to 305BG 23rd May 1945.
 
And as we've seen PFF ships from the 315th and the 457th, finishing off the 94th Combat Wing is one from the 401st Bomb Group:
 

 
44-8259 IW-G, IY-K
Assigned 401BG 18 Nov 1944.
Transferred to 305BG 20 May 1945.
 
Hope that's of use to someone. ;)
I've found plenty of photos of 1st Air Div PFF ships, both the Air Depot conversions and the later 44-8xxx US-modified ones. 42-97701 is the only one to bear that extra triangle at first glance, but I'll go through them in more detail later.
 
All the best,
Paul

Paul Bellamy 

401st BG Association
401st BG Historical Society (UK)
RAF Twinwood Farm Museum

Hello Paul, yup thats the ic, of #701 NADINE L. My reckoning is that this along with several other PFF ships from 351stBG amongst other 1st AD groups, were exchanged-transfered into the 305th in mid May of 1945. Prior to that, this one, as with several others, were used ad hoc on day to day needs, to lead missions. I have understood those three blank 'blacked out' triangles, signify it is a 1st AD aircraft and that it is a 'lead' PFF ship. Having a blank unit triangle helped them to move around between 1st AD groups without causing uncessary confusion to the few crews hat might get so confused ....!!!
 
As an aside, I like this particular photo, a good clean imgine with lots to catch the eye and a story to tell....
 
You attending Madingley Tomorrow?? Pack your welly's and wet weather gear ....!!
 
Also, have I read somewhere that the 401st are meeting up for a UK reunion this summer here?? You probably know mutual friend, Paul Knight??
 
Regards Ian

Ian White - 305th BGMA Hon. Life Associate, UK Contact and Organiser of next years 40th Combat Wing UK Reunion - May 21st-31st 2009

I've found one more "All Black Triangle" photo:
 

 
Paul Knight and Dale will be representing the 401st at Madingley tomorrow, unfortunately I'll be at the RAF90 event at East Kirkby. Umbrella, overalls and Erk wellies will be a must I think.
 
All the best,
Paul

Paul Bellamy 

401st BG Association
401st BG Historical Society (UK)
RAF Twinwood Farm Museum

One more "All Black Triangle" 94CBW PFF aircraft:
 

 
Photo above from the 457BG website, and captioned as 42-97600 on the 28/2/45 Soest mission.
 
42-97600 was allocated to the 401BG on the 20th August 1944, firstly to 614th Bomb Squadron as IW-Y, then transferred to the Group's dedicated PFF flight within the 613th Bomb Squadron as IN-Y.
She was lost to flak on the 21st November 1944.
 
So, something is wrong regards either the date of the photo, of the identity of the aircraft shown. Sadly the serial number is unclear, other than ending in zero, and the codes on the fuselage are also unclear. What is clear however is the blank fin triangle.
 
Does anyone have a better version of the photo where the s/n is readable?
 
All the best,
Paul
 
Apologies for dragging this thread into 94th Combat Wing territory to deeply.

Paul Bellamy 

401st BG Association
401st BG Historical Society (UK)
RAF Twinwood Farm Museum

Paul:

Great photos. Thanks for posting them.

I thought you all would enjoy this little anecdote my father wrote about Mickey use in Feb of 1945:

"Our Squadron had a bombardier who was a real whiz at using radar for bombing. His ability was such that at first he was used only against our important targets and initially this raised his ego. But after a time, flying on only the tough missions got to him so he asked Operations to give him a few milk runs and they complied.

"I took him on a training flight once and I can remember that while he was looking at his scope we passed over an aircraft going in the opposite direction. He immediately called to me asking if there had been a plane below. When I said yes, he was pleased as punch that his radar equipment had been able to pick up an object as small as a B-24."

Ken

Ken Alexander
Son of 1st Lt. Clair B. Alexander Jr.
Pilot, B-24s: 10/12/1944 - 04/24/1945
15th AF, 49th Wing, 461st BG, 764th BS
Torretta Airfield, Cerignola, Italy

......he was pleased as punch that his radar equipment had been able to pick up an object as small as a B-24."
.

 

Airborne radar returns from low formation airplanes were so early that they were contained in the scopes luminous center spot. Since these early returns were missing from the later overall display, a radar "shadow" was created. Images of low flying airplanes observed by radar operators were typically of this shadow.
 

Attached is an APS-15 scope shot of a radar shadow cast by a B-24. -Adrian


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Hi Ken,

Some mickey men were indeed "whiz kids." Some more veteran veterans would level critical barrage at these guys, and understandably so.

I have found by and large, however, that like all military scuttlebutt some of it is deserved, some not.

Check out the following names on the mission list in the back of the "official" Ploesti pub--Roche, John.
        Sisson, Dale.
        Nathe, Raymond.
        Avendano, Joe.
Be aware that all these men held key positions in the 482nd BG (Pathfinder) organization.
According to a partial database rec'd from a source (work in progress, nothing's gonna be released until the research is done), the Radar Navigators, or the Mickey Men as they came to be called, sustained perhaps as great as a 50% casuality rate.

Also be aware, and with all due respect to everyone, many of the live radar navigators/bombardiers that I've found are 15th AF veterans. This pans out like the B24 vs B-17 agree to disagree fest. 

Bottom line: of those mickey men who lived in both the 8th AF and 15th AF, a full 90% became engineers of one sort or another. Two were medical doctors, one was a chemical engineer, one an optical engineer, one a locomotive engineer. Many had/have patents to their credit, etc.

G. Combs
Niece
First Lieutenant Clay Byers
Navigator Bombardier Radar
1st September 1944
482nd BG (Pathfinder)
389th BG
466th BG