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Hot!MACR # B-17 42-5125

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Terveurn
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RE: MACR # B-17 42-5125 (permalink)
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Think I mentioned that he was with 6./JG11 (II Gruppe) above - this group would have been stationed at Jever A/D (flying Bf109G's) - but under control of the controllers at Helgoland.
 
Cheers
 
 

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Delancey
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RE: MACR # B-17 42-5125 (permalink)
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FrancisM

Delancey,
on 13th June 1943 Hintzen was no longer with Jagdstaffel Helgoland but was with the 6. /JG 11, so the radio interception commentary has no relevence to Hintzen.
You will find some further biographical details of Hintzen in my book "Die Jäger der Graf Zeppelin" published by myself in 2002. This is in German as you might guess. I even photographed his grave in Herne, but failed to find details of his post-war career, although he might well have continued his pre-war trade of Confectioner.
 
Francis

Thanks for your reply Francis , unfortunately I don't speak any German ( though I will have to learn it later this year for my work ! ).
When did Hintzen die ?
I still can't help but wonder about that intercepted radio traffic given how close it was timewise to when Hintzen claimed his B 17.
Thanks again
 
FrancisM
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RE: MACR # B-17 42-5125 (permalink)
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Delancey,
 
exactly where does
"Jasta Helgoland ( Hintzens squadron which was also known as '' The Boeing Pinchers '' )"
this nickname come from? I've not seen it mentioned anywhere.
Terveurn, it is actually the other way round, as Jever control gave the orders to the II./JG 11 and Jasta Helgoland came under this command. Nearby in Stade was the 2nd Jagddivision which controlled all the fighter units in the area.
Note that the radio traffic interception was listed under the frequency used and this varied between the Bf 109 Ts of Jasta Helgoland (FuG VII 2.50 to 3.75 MHz) and the Bf 109 Gs of the II./JG 11 (FuG 16 40 MHz).
Hintzen dies on the 16th March 1962 by the way.
 
Francis
azapf1972
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RE: MACR # B-17 42-5125 (permalink)
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I have just joined the board after finding this discussion on the internet. I am currently researching the raid on Bremen & Kiel on June 13, 1943 and I would be most interested in seeing the post-mission intelligence reports if there is any possibility. I was able to retrieve many of the MACRs from fold3 but they don't seem to have the mission intelligence reports.
 
Any help is greatly appreciated.
 
Andreas
mycalew
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RE: MACR # B-17 42-5125 (permalink)
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Andreas,
I have photo copied nearly the entire mission from June 13th 1943 mission to Bremen/Kiel. I was at the USAF research library last summer researching our family member who was shot down after bombing Bremen. If you would like, send me your address and i will photo copy them and send them to you.
 
What is your interest? Do you have a family member who was part of the mission?
 
-Lewis
mycalew@gmail.com
 

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azapf1972
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RE: MACR # B-17 42-5125 (permalink)
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Hi Lewis,
 
thanks for the quick reply - interesting documentation you got there, I hope. I have to admit that my interest comes "from the other party" - you may have noticed the German eMail address...
 
Now, what is going on here is a request in one of the German forums - an eyewitness who has been seeing the events "from the ground" near the Kiel target area. As I have a quite good library "in family" myself, I decided to try and help out as much as I can. I was able to assemble the "chain of events" as they are presented by German sources - mainly the compiled chronicles of the various Luftwaffe wings.
 
But I also believe that no such event should only be looked at from one side - you need to thoroughly look at both sides and that is what has brought me to the forum here. I am a signed-up member of fold3 so I have access to the MACRs and other information but not everything is available digitally. The post-mission reports are not, as it seems.
 
What I am currently trying to do is to match up the German Luftwaffe claims against the MACRs and other reports of the USAAF...
 
I would be interested in electronic copies (PDF or JPG) if possible - should that not work, I will see that one of my US friends in PA "volunteers" to receive the photocopies - what I can offer in return (unless you already got that information) is my insight on the German records (translated into English, of course).
 
Andreas
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mycalew
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RE: MACR # B-17 42-5125 (permalink)
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Andreas,
After sending the message i wondered if you weren't from Germany based on your name 
 
Yes, I agree that having the story from both sides is the best way to accurately find out what happened. I would love to have a copy of the German records as well!
 
Tonight at work i should be able to scan and email the documents to you, however, your email does not show up in your profile, only your name, unless i am looking in the wrong location.
 
My wife's great-uncle piloted aircraft 42-5125, as you can see from the other posts, we are trying to locate the actual area that the plane was shot down off the coast. We believe we may know who the pilot was. Any information would be greatly appreciated.
 
From my military service, I know how terrifying it can be to have bombs dropped over your head. Please give my regards to the Kiel survivors that you have contact with.
 
-Lewis
 
 

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mycalew
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RE: MACR # B-17 42-5125 (permalink)
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Andreas, 
Should you have any more questions that my records do not provide, you can always contact the Air force Historical Research Agency:
 
600 Chennault Circle
Maxwell AFB Alabama
36112-6424
 
www.maxwell.af.mil/au/afhra/
 
Telephone 334-953-5834

Lewis and Myca Christensen
Delancey
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RE: MACR # B-17 42-5125 (permalink)
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Andreas ,
Lewis has some very useful papers which he kindly shared with me and I hope you will find them of value. The most striking thing about the Intelligence Summary is the difference in resistance over the targets - the Kiel raid sounds to have been murderous with 22 out of 76 B-17's lost mainly due to very heavy Luftwaffe attacks while at Bremen fighter opposition was decribed as '' negligible '' and flak was described as '' inaccurate '' .
My cousin and Lewis's relative were on the same bomber and appear to have been desperately unlucky to be shot down - I would be very interested to learn if your research bears out the likely identity of the Luftwaffe officer we think shot down ' our ' aircraft.
azapf1972
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RE: MACR # B-17 42-5125 (permalink)
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Lewis,
 
I have received the two eMails - I much appreciate your effort. I will start reviewing and feeding them into my findings in the next days or so. One more, many thanks for your quick help!
 
Delancey, as soon as I have worked through Lewis' information, I will be back here to share, promised.
 
Andreas

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mycalew
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RE: MACR # B-17 42-5125 (permalink)
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Andreas,
Glad we could help!
 
This 13th of June will be more meaningful this year since so many new contacts and pieces of information have been shared. I, and I am sure Delancy as well, look forward to hearing the story from those who were on the recieving end of the bombing that day so many years ago.
 
-Lewis

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azapf1972
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RE: MACR # B-17 42-5125 (permalink)
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Lewis,
 
I think I owe you an update and an apology: just shortly after the last time we talked, a load of private issues came down my way and entirely stopped my work on the topic. I had a chance to continue working from time to time and I am currently assembling all I have found so far... got a 50 page document done already and hope to be able to continue working on that with a bit more pace now...
 
If you want, I can share what I currently have with you - I got the feeling I owe you for the documents - but it is not ready for publishing yet. You will, however, not find much on 42-5125 yet because I have been focusing on the other part of the raid, going to Kiel, so far...
 
Andreas
mycalew
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Andreas,
Any amount of research is very time consuming, I can not imagine doing what you are doing while also going about daily obligations! I would be very interested in what you have found thus far, especially when you get to Bremen! Best of luck with all of your work, this history is important to all of our peoples.
 
I do not have a fax machine here at home, only email. You do not "owe" me for anything :) I am completely satisfied in being able to help you in your endeavors.
 
Lewis

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azapf1972
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RE: MACR # B-17 42-5125 (permalink)
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Lewis,
 
I managed to finish the major part of my findings - some smaller sections (Introduction, Sources, etc.) remain to be done. Still, I want to share what I got so far. The majority of the work will be review - but (I know of lesser interest to you) I have tried to request the post-mission narrative reports for the Kiel part of the raid - I hope, someone comes out and has them...
 
You can download the draft copy here... it will see an update in the next couple of weeks if I get time...
 
BTW: I know you are specifically after 42-5125 - so far, you must have gotten more than I got... I will continue to keep an eye open...
 
Andreas
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mycalew
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RE: MACR # B-17 42-5125 (permalink)
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Andreas,
I have just briefly scrolled through your draft copy, you have done a most excellent job! I can not wait for a couple hours to read in greater detail all of the information you have provided. As far as the out come of Boom Town Jr., Delancy has the post accident testimonies of 2 of the crew members. I also have a copy if you would like. It gives some light as to the fates of the crew.
Thank you so much for your efforts, I am amazed and grateful that an interest is still present not only by our families but by those affected by the missions that day.
 
-Lewis

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mycalew
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Andreas, 
Would it be alright if I linked your research to the 305th Bomber Groups official facebook page? So many other members would love to see what you have done i'm sure.
 
Lewis

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azapf1972
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RE: MACR # B-17 42-5125 (permalink)
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mycalew

Andreas,
I have just briefly scrolled through your draft copy, you have done a most excellent job! I can not wait for a couple hours to read in greater detail all of the information you have provided. As far as the out come of Boom Town Jr., Delancy has the post accident testimonies of 2 of the crew members. I also have a copy if you would like. It gives some light as to the fates of the crew.
Thank you so much for your efforts, I am amazed and grateful that an interest is still present not only by our families but by those affected by the missions that day.

-Lewis

 
Lewis,
I hope you enjoy reading - you may want to get a new copy of my website though because I had to add a section on the 95th this morning... if course, if there is more information on Boom Town Jr. you can share, I am happy do include it, especially if it is "first-hand accounts" like you suggested. I had been wondering about the fact that two of the crew are listed as POW but unfortunately, the MACR does not contain the Crew Interrogation Reports some other MACRs on the lost a/c had as their crew returned after hostilities ceased... By the way, I will update the section on 42-5125 later because I am almost convinced that your earlier assessment with Oblt. Hintzen being the Luftwaffe pilot to bring down the ship is - in my terms - "very likely". To be honest, the section is also so short for the moment because I was hoping you would have some additional insight that I could use...
 
With respect to my "efforts": this is our mutual history and only fools will ignore history. I had the honor to walk the city of Darmstadt with a US Veteran, a B-17 pilot, once (and I need to find out more about him and his military background later this year) but when we walked the city in the late '90s, Terry was very quiet and thoughtful. He then pointed at a church and told his spouse (who had asked why he was so quiet) "I have been here before..." - she said "Bull****, you have never been to Germany before..." and that was when he pointed towards the sky... later, he asked me what I was thinking about it, having been born in the city. My personal opinion is what I tried to express in my Introduction section: the war is over but the men that had been fighting it on both sides deserve to not be forgotten... they all paid a price, some of them the highest possible. Today, it should not matter what color the flag was they had been flying...
 
Mission #63 is (like any other) a good example: you are still looking for a family member out there, I am sure the family of Lt. Auth is also... the numbers are higher on the USAAF that day but a life is a life :(
 
Finally, on your request to link on the 305th BG Facebook page: be my guest, this is not written to remain hidden - and maybe one or the other will find it interesting, useful or even has to add information... there is so much I cannot get my hands on from here... and possibly the other way round. You can use http://www.chronicles-of-the-luftwaffe.de/?p=299 as the link... send me a link, I am on Facebook as well so I can see the comment :)
 
Andreas
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mycalew
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RE: MACR # B-17 42-5125 (permalink)
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Andreas,
You could not have said it any better! May all those who fought find peace, happiness and forgiveness.
 
I will speak with Delancy about posting the post war interviews of the 2 crew members. The account is unpleasant at best and i think we both agree that we wouldn't want it necessarily reproduced in full, or to have any "conclusions" drawn from it. I know that you are only telling the story, and i hope that those that read it will gain a better understanding of what these men on both sides went through.
 
In the mean time, here is the link to our 305th bomb group face book page: 
http://www.facebook.com/groups/54028564457/#mce_temp_url#
I will post your link tonight, I am sure that many will find this very meaningful!
 
-Lewis

Lewis and Myca Christensen
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