I am looking for anyone who crewed with my Grandfather, Bob Kilmark. He was sick with illness on first mission and his crew was killed in collision. He was then given training crews to take up for 5 missions until new pilot was given to crew. Its unfortunite that this happened because he has no close relationships with anyone from this period. I have been looking for quite awhile and would like to here from anyone who might have known him during his time in Foggia,  Italy.
 
John Moler, Grandson of Col. Kilmark, Pilot of Berlin sleeper II, III, IV. 

John,
My father, William Little, flew on five missions with your grandfather.  I have very little information but will share with you in a personal email what little I know.

Janet L. Moore
daughter of William J. Little
463rd BG 772nd BS

Addition to first post:
Bob Kilmark retired from the Army as a medical doctor in 1985 after 42-years in the service. He was the oldest Colonel on active duty and still could pass his Army physical. Flying 43 missions in B-17s during WWII, he crash-landed five different planes but always brought his crews home and never abandoned ship. He became a doctor following WWII and served in a M.A.S.H. unit for 10 years seeing duty in the Korean and Vietnam Wars.

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Hi John my father(Lt.James L. Jarmon) was a co-pilot on transition to being a pilot with Bob Kilmark. Dad flew with him on several missions and sorties.
The first one on July 11,1944 and I think the last on July 26,1944(or maybe July 21,1944).
There were a couple of training missions on July 11,1944,July 12,1944,July 14,1944 and July 16,1944.
My dad's first mission with your grandfather(who was the pilot) was on July 13,1944 from Celone to bomb a marshalling yard(VERLONA) in Northern Italy on  board ship 231827 G.I. Delivery.On that mission they lost 1 engine and there was light FLAK.
On July 18th 1944 they had a sortie together to bomb a Luftwaffe airfield at Memmingen(It was spelled MEMIGEN on the flight logs).I think that it was a sortie in Austria(Maybe Germany).The ship was 46194 Berlin Sleeper III
It says something about fighters(probably enemy fighters mad as hell) and escorts.I think that was the sortie in which the 463rd didn't receive the recall signal from the 5th bomb wing(It was supposed to be recalled for some reason).Another bomb group in the 5th Wing also bombed this target but got attacked pretty severely I think.Dad told me this story a long time ago so I'm sorry if I got part of it wrong.By the way I think that this sortie is featured in the add on for Microsoft Combat Flight Simulator of Tuskegee Fighters by Abacus.

There was a sortie on July 21,1944 from the Celone airfield near Foggia to Brux Czechoslovakia to bomb an oil refinery with very accurate enemy FLAK
the ship was 46194 Berlin Sleeper III.
Apparently they lost 1 engine and had to dump the ball turret and other items(guns,ammo etc.) to make it back to a British RAF airfield at Pescara.From the RAF airfield after refueling they took off to Celone and there was unfortunately a crash landing at the Celone Airfield.I didn't hear anything about any of the crew being hurt fortunately.
On July 24,1944 there was a mission to bomb a tank factory at Turin Italy.
On that mission there was inaccurate FLAK.The ship was 46271 The White Charger.
On July 26,1944 there was a sortie to bomb I think an Engine plant at Wienernudorf(Vienna) Austria.The ship was 231827 G.I. Delivery
On that mission there was light FLAK.
However I am not sure if your grandfather was the pilot on the July 24 mission and July 26 sortie.My dad might have been with another pilot on those missions.
After that date on July 27,1944 my father was the pilot with the rest of his assigned crew.My fathers last combat mssion was on Nov 11,1944.
He had 50 missions(included 35 sorties).
My father sadly passed away in July 2004.So our family misses him a lot.

Anyway feel free to post at the 463rd's website.

Jonathan, and  John Moler (Kilmarkskin)........There are conflicts over the Names and Nose Art.

To have a Name or Nose Art  "Officially Recognized", certain criteria must be present.....The Nose Art/Name must be visible in a photo, along with some ID of the Aircraft...Note, I said AIRCRAFT...this includes  (All Types,.... Bombers, Cargo, Fighters).

The ID consists of the Data information below the pilot's window/canopy . Either of two criteria must be met...the data information must be visible along with the nose art/name... OR... the tail number of the aircraft must also be in the photo.

Complicating things was the practice of a name/nose art ONLY on the RIGHT side of an aircraft, and the DATA information is on the LEFT (This was the Official  standard location for ALL USAAF Aircraft).

In addition, at times there was one name/nose art on the RiGHT side, with a second different name/nose art on the LEFT side...If the LEFT side met the recognized criteria, ONLY the LEFT side will be recognized.

Dick Drain's 5th Wing History shows 42-31827 with no officially recognized name...you are saying it was "GI DELIVERY".

44-6194 IS shown in the 5th WIng History as "Berlin Sleeper III".

44-6271 is shown in the 5th Wing History as MAGNIFICANT OBSESSION, while you are saying it was THE WHITE CHARGER...This may be a case where the name MAGNIFANT OBSESSION is on the LEFT SIDE and the name WHITE CHARGER was on the RIGHT SIDE.

Again, OFFICIALLY, only the name MAGNIFANT OBSESSION will be recognized.

BERLIN SLEEPER II is shown in the 5th Wing History as 41-24370 assigned to the 97th BG and was never assigned to the 463rd BG.
(Again, this may mean that there was in fact a BERLIN SLEEPER II in the 463rd but not officially recognized due to the above criteria).

BERLIN SLEEPER IV is lost to history, as it apparently also cannot be ID'd,  "Officially" due to the above criteria.  The 5th Wing History does not show BERLIN SLEEPER IV. This may also be a case of the name on the RIGHT side of the aircraft with no ID as specified in the criteria, ..OR the name cannot be ID's with the Data information,...OR the tail number is not shown in the same photo as the nose art/name.  

I am not disputing your information that the aircraft were  named.... only... that some of your names did not meet the criteria for Official Recognition.

There are over 200 names/nose art that cannot be ID'd to an aircraft because there is no ID as to the aircraft serial number.

Please keep this in mind when, or if ,someone may dispute a name/nose art.

Jim :-)

James S. Peters Sr. T/Sgt
B-17 Flt Engr, 27 missions
99 BG, 348BS, 5th Wing, 15th AAF
Tortorella, (Foggia#2), Italy
My Tour was from 12/03/44-06/19/45
M/Sgt USAF (Retired)

     I am not sure of the specific details on flight numbers and insignias. I am more interested in human interaction with my Grandfather and stories of inflight or on the ground details.
     I think the last mission he flew was on July 21, 1944. He said they had to chop out the ball turret and it made the plane nose heavy. He said to the crew to stay out of the nose upon landing, but two people disobeyed and when the plane was coming to a stop, the nose went over, and the two men were killed, according to him.
    He said on one mission a flight of 262's came through the squadran head on, and after they went by his plane, he looked around and saw 3 planes going down.
I have his memoirs on video tape. The tape is getting old and I would like to make another one with him soon.
John Moler

John...You do not mention whether you have been in contact with the 463rd BG Association...if you have not...here is the URL.  
 
http://www.463rd.org/
 
If you contact the 463rd BG Association, you may (MAY) find someone who will meet your expectations.
Thre is usually a newsletter in all BG Associations and this will be a point of contact for any members who flew with or knew your grandfather...if they are still with us.
 
The website says there is a Bulletin Board for a person seeking information.
 
Jim :-)

James S. Peters Sr. T/Sgt
B-17 Flt Engr, 27 missions
99 BG, 348BS, 5th Wing, 15th AAF
Tortorella, (Foggia#2), Italy
My Tour was from 12/03/44-06/19/45
M/Sgt USAF (Retired)

Dick Drain's 5th Wing History shows 42-31827 with no officially recognized name...you are saying it was "GI DELIVERY".

44-6194 IS shown in the 5th WIng History as "Berlin Sleeper III".

44-6271 is shown in the 5th Wing History as MAGNIFICANT OBSESSION, while you are saying it was THE WHITE CHARGER...This may be a case where the name MAGNIFANT OBSESSION is on the LEFT SIDE and the name WHITE CHARGER was on the RIGHT SIDE

Hi Jim (jpeters140)Ship licence # 827 is listed as "G.I. Delivery" on page 67,202 and 286 of the book 772nd Bomb Squadron The Men-The Memories.On page 427 ship 231827 is listed as having crashed near Ploesti due to FLAK on July 31,1944 (MACR 7154).On page 286 my father wrote about what happened to ship #827 G.I. Delivery on July 31,1944.
Thanks for the correction about the official recognized name of MAGNIFICANT OBSESSION.
Perhaps someone can find a picture of ship 231827(42-31827).
John Moler(Kilmarkskin) I didn't hear anything about any of the crew being killed on board on July 21,1944.Sorry to hear that.That's news to me.
By the way my mother knows your grandfather.

42-31827 was officially named "G I Delivery."  Jon, as you noted, it is listed so in the 772nd SQ book.  I also have at least one picture of the aircraft, although I would be hard pressed to find it at the moment.
 
I appreciate Jim's explanation of the criteria for the 'official' name recognition of an aircraft.  I did not know that.  Thanks, Jim.
 
What I was told about "Magnificent Malfunction"/"The White Charger" was that it had been called the Magnificent Malfunction, then the name changed The White Charger.  You could prove it by me but that was what I was told.  I have no way of knowing what was actually the case.
 
Joel

Joel Swindlehurst
463rd Bomb Group Historian
www.463rd.org
Proud son of 1/Lt Leroy J. Swindlehurst (1921-1950)
Navigator, 772nd Sq., 463rd BG

I am interested to know if when a plane was lost, if the name was transfered to the next aircraft flown by the same Pilot. My grandfather lost his plane when he ditched in the adriatic. While he was waiting for air sea rescue a German partrol boat was heading for them when a spitfire sent by air sea rescue dove down and proceeded to set it afire and sink it. This was the crews first mission out of 5 with him. They all asked if this is what combat is like. He said yes. All of them put in for transfer and moved to new assignments.
 
John Moler

John...Your question was to Swindy, and I will give you my answer....when a named aircraft was shot down, was it's replacement named the same, only # II, or #  III ?

My answer is sometimes..but not always, due to some pilots naming thier aircraft and other times the ground Crew Chief picking the name.
 
In addtion, not all aircraft were named..contrary to popular belief.....the FIRST aircraft to be taken overseas by a bomb group, to enter combat as a unit were mostly all named, but, replacements were not named at all toward the end of the war.  I myself have flown on aircraft with names,but, I did not pay any attention to any names,or nose art.  

Also, the replacement aircraft was lost before it could be named, on more than one occasion.

I recommend a book called Bloody Skies by Melvin McGuire and Robert Hadley....McGuire was a waist gunner whose crew flew a new B-17 to Italy and was assigned directly to the 2nd BG...when his new B-17G landed at Amendola, the crew was told to empty their belongings as soon as possible as that day's mission had resulted in the loss of all aircraft of that squadron, and the new B-17 was the only one assigned to that squadron, and had to be readied for the mission the next day......there was no time to paint the Group and Squadron markings, nose art or name.

It also is an excellent book to read of the life in a typical B-17 Bomb Group, and I am sure is also typical of life in the B-24 Bomb Groups. for instance it tells of a homemade heating stove fired by gasoline to heat their tent.

I apologize to Swindy for jumping in here.

Jim :-)

James S. Peters Sr. T/Sgt
B-17 Flt Engr, 27 missions
99 BG, 348BS, 5th Wing, 15th AAF
Tortorella, (Foggia#2), Italy
My Tour was from 12/03/44-06/19/45
M/Sgt USAF (Retired)

Jim,
No need to apologize for posting comments or answers to questions here.  Hey, you would probably or certainly know more about it than I would since you were there.  Your insights into the lives of the airmen are priceless so don't ever hesitate on my account.  I will always respect your opinion and value your input.  And it is an open forum, Jim.
 
And I heartily agree with your evaluation of "Bloody Skies".  I thought it was one of the better books on the 15th AF 5th Wing groups that I have read, if not the best.  I wish I would have had the opportunity to meet Mr. McGuire. 
 
Another recent book that is pretty good too is "Shot At and Missed" by Jack R. Myers.  Mr. Myers was also in the 2nd BG.  Also a pretty good read regarding the B-17s of Italy.
 
There are others written by men of the 463rd but I don't think they were widely published and probably only available in used book stores.  Generally not of the level of McGuire's or Myers' books either. (My opinion.)
 
Joel

Joel Swindlehurst
463rd Bomb Group Historian
www.463rd.org
Proud son of 1/Lt Leroy J. Swindlehurst (1921-1950)
Navigator, 772nd Sq., 463rd BG

O.K. I found the picture of 42-31827 G.I. DELIVERY.
It's on page 204 of the 772nd Book.On the tail it has the numbers 231827 and below it the words G.I. Delivery and a drawing of a stork delivering instead of a baby, a bomb.
On page 220 of the 772nd Squadron Book there is a letter dated 25th July 1944 listing AC # 44-6271 as the White Charger in a letter about assigned combat aircraft in the 772nd squadron.

Oh hey I found a picture of what happened to Berlin Sleeper III.


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I've found out a little more about Berlin Sleeper III.
From MACR 9717 at this website she was lost on Aug 19,1944.
Apparently she must have been repaired.This mission corresponds to a target at the Xenia Oil Refinaries at Ploesti Romania.
By the way your grandpa went though some very tough missions as there were a lot of losses on those early 463rd missions.
Here is a newpaper clipping of Bob Kilmark and my dad.
And Jim Peters you have been very helpful.
We are so lucky to have you around.By the way I just found my dad's
"The fighting 463rd" book.It goes into detail about some of your grandad's missions on page 137,138 and 139.I don't know where you are going to find this book though since it's probably been out of print for a long time.
On page 137 it shows your granddad inspecting the damaged B-17 (Berlin Sleeper III) but the picture in the book has it listed as license number 846 which is incorrect.


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