To members of the 487th.  I am seeking information, stories, and photos of my uncle: Lt. Ralph G. Norbert. He was in the 836th sqdr. at Lavenham.  He served as a mickey operator starting in November, 1944.  He initially crewed with Lt. J.W. Bart, in February, 1945 he was assigned to a new crew, pilot: Captain Robertson, since Bart completed his last mission [Cottbus, Germany] 15 Feb 1945. Any info would be greatly appreciated.  He was killed in a car accident on the Pennsylvania turnpike in 1946.
Thanks
Greg

Greg -
Contact Forum Member / Author Ivo de Jong.
He recently did a History of the 487th BG.
Also: www.487thbg.org
Mike

Hi Greg,

I have scanned my database for information on your uncle and the 2 other men you mention.  This database is, by the way, one that supplies the information that you can see on the roster at the groups web site: http://www.487thbg.org/roster/487thRosterIntro.shtml

As to specifics on the names:

1) I do have a Lt. James W. Burt of the 836th squadron.  This came from Ivo's book.  Perhaps the one letter difference is a misspelling on one side or the other.
2) The only pilot named Robertson that I can find is Captain Hugh B Roberson in the 839th squaderon.  He was one of the original crews and I don't know if he was still flying with the group in Feb 1945.  Certainly possible, and it's possible your uncle could have been transferred between squadrons.
3) The records do not have your uncle in them.  This is possible as he may have transferred in and not been found when various records have been collected over the years, and for instance in Ivo's research of original records.  I'm wondering if perhaps he was an experienced Mickey Operator and transferred in from a different group?
4) The mission you mention on 15-Feb-1945 indeed seems to have been to Cottbus Germany, so that checks.

Do you happen to have copies of records of your uncle?  I very much want to get him properly into our records and would enjoy the chance to see any 'orders', etc that you have.

You can email them to me at lch_nh@comcast.net

Thanks very much and keep in touch!

Lee (www.487thbg.org)

Lee -- Thank you for taking the time to respond to my inquiry. This is what I know. Ralph Norbert came to the 487th 4 Nov 1944. I presume from training in the US.  He was assigned to a lead crew on the 6th.  He listed the pilot of that crew as 1st Lt J.W. Bart  [Not sure who has the misspelling Ivo or Ralph.]
Bart (Burt) and the rest of the crew had 17 missions to their credit at this point, and "Pilotage Navigator" 1st Lt. N. Brown had completed 23 missions.
Ralph's 1st mission was on 26 Nov'44 to Hamm, Germany.  After his 13th  mission, 15 Feb '45 to Cottbus, Germany, Ralph was assigned to a new crew, that  was the 30th mission for Bart and the others and the end of their tour.
Ralph was assigned to this crew on 21 Feb '45, and their 1st mission together came the next day  22 Feb '45 to Ansbach, Germany. They could not hit their PT -- mashalling yards in Egen, Czech due to weather
He lists his new pilot as Capt. Robinson.
Ralph completed 14 more missions before the fighting in Europe ended. His last [#27] was 20 April '45 to Neuruppin, Germany
Let me give you the roster of these 2 crews. perhaps it will prompt recollections by others also:
 
P                   1st Lt. J.W. Bart  
CP                 1st Lt. T.S. Harber
N                   1st Lt. T.C. Miller  
PN                 1st Lt. N. Brown
B                    Capt. Grantham
MO                 2nd Lt. R. G. Norbert
RO                  T/Sgt. Zevibel
Engineer         T/Sgt. Maizel
Gunner            S/Sgt. Cales
 
P                      Capt. Robertson
CP                    2nd Lt. Breaunig
NAV                  1st Lt. Rolfes
B                      1st Lt. Williams
MO                   1st Lt. RGN
RO                    T/Sgt. Christen
Engineer           T/Sgt. Barjas
WG                    S/Sgt. Brooke

Hello,
Well, here we have a nice puzzle on our hands...
I think that Norbert was trained as PFF navigator in the US, and was assigned individually to the 487th on the date that you mention.
Definitely the name of his first pilot was James W. Burt. He was indeed a lead pilot in the Group. On his original crew (which arrived at Lavenham on July 23, 44) were among others
Thurl S. Harber (copilot), Townsend C. Miller (navigator), David W. Zwibel (radio operator) and Frank S. Coles (gunner). These four names are also on your listing. N. Brown may be Neil E. Brown, who was the original navigator on Lt Fuller's crew (one of the original crews in the Group). Capt Grantham is definitely Russell A. Grantham, an original member of the Group. As yet, I can't identify the "Maizel" you mention, but will give it a try later on.

His second crew was led by Hugh B. Robertson (an original pilot in the Group, probably on his second tour). Robert H. Brauenig was a pilot (who arrived on December 28, 1944) and who was apparently put in the co-pilot's seat on this mixed lead crew. Stanley E. Rolfes was an original navigator (on Lt Rhynalds' crew). Lt Williams is probably Lt James L. Williams (an original bombardier, on Lt Zerr's crew).
The 'Barjas' you mention is most probably engineer Ralph R. Barajas. I can't find 'Christen' "Brooke" may be Hugh E. Brooks, a waist gunner on Lt Elliot's crew, who may have been bumped off the crew when crew size was reduced from 10 to 9 men.

I visited both Robertson and Grantham in 2002 during my research for the Group History. Grantham has since passed away.
Hope that this helps a bit.
Best regards,
Ivo de Jong
The Netherlands

Hello and Greetings.
I was surprised to hear from you.  Thank you for taking the time to respond. I appreciate all the clarifications on the names etc.
I have gleaned the little bits of information that I have on my uncle from 2 personal sources.
> I have his certificate of missions from the 8thAAF which lists the dates and targets of his 27 missions.
> I have his personal mission diary where he offers brief descriptions for each mission.
Each entry tells when they got up, time of briefings, breakfast, duration of bomb run, enemy opposition and amount of flack encountered, type and amount of bombs dropped  whether the sighting equipment worked or not and when they returned etc. 
Although I wish he had included more personal thoughts in his entries, it is interesting that here was an individual, rather quiet, unassuming, who was there to do his duty and do his job the best he could, complete his missions and get back home.  Each entry ends with a count down to 30. For example:
"4 down 26 to go"  And each entry ends with the line: "Where and When next?"  I would be very surprised if this was a unique attitude on his part.  I am sure that most of the men on those missions wishes they were somewhere else.
Only once did he mention being scared. On 13 Jan '45 returning from a mission to Mainz, Ger  (His 7th Mission) coming down out of heavy cloud they just avoided a mid-air collison with another plane (doesn't mention type -- I guess another fort).
To quote him:
"All of a sudden a plane appeared at 10 o'clock heading directly for us -- 3 of us yelled over the inter phone at once - "Pull up Bart" -- I was at the waist window -- I prayed, honestly, I did -- In those 4 seconds it looked as if we were goners in a mid air collision at 500' -- That plane just slipped under us and didn't clear us by more than 10 feet. My short prayers were answered in those few seconds -- Only by those prayers am I able to sit and write this narrative -- We landed on the next pass on the field and I was glad to put my feet on good old "terra firma" -- It's the closest call I've had in an airplane -- Words can't describe that experience. I just want to forget it now. -- 7 down 23 to go.  Where and When next?"
 
Extraordinary feats accomplished by ordinary men, and by those feats they became extraodinary men.
 
I assume from your reply that I probably will not be able to obtain  much imore info on my uncle beyond what I already have.  Unless, I am really lucky to find an individual who remembers him personally and has some personal stories to tell.  It seems that these "individually assigned" men were not totally connected with the crews that had been together since their training.  I also factor in  that he accomplished his 27 missions in a about 6 months [Nov '44 to April '45].
 
Anyway, I'll keep digging and keep asking. Thanks again for the response.
Regards
Greg Norbert
Pennsylvania
 
 

Hello Greg,
The 'Maizel' you mention is Morris Maizel, who was the original engineer on the crew of Lt. Ira Ball. Ball (and three of his original crew) went down on the December 24, 1944 mission.
I agree with you that finding more info on your uncle will be difficult. You may want to give it a try with a 'white page' search for the names that you mentioned. It is sad that Russell Grantham passed away recently, as he was a navigator too. I can help you with the addresse s of Hugh Robertson and Stanley Rolfes, who both contributed to my book.

You may wish to consider to transcribe the mission diary that you have, and submit it to Lee Hauenstein for use on the 'crew story' page on his website www.487thbg.org. Although the entries are brief, they will definitely be of interest for all of us.

Good luck in your research, and if I come across any other info, I will let you know.
Ivo de Jong