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 Losses on Octber 7-8, 1944?
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rhammans

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Losses on Octber 7-8, 1944? - 10/14/2007 12:55:53 PM
Did the 44th BG suffer any losses, specifically to German jets, on October 7 or October 8, 1944? Thanks.
Reed
66-506

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RE: Losses on Octber 7-8, 1944? - 10/16/2007 02:25:42 AM
7 October 1944 Target Kassel GERMANY  Three losses all to flak. No jets. One crashlanded in Belgium the other two went down just after bombs away.

Stood down on 8 October 1944 no Mission no Sorties.
<message edited by 66-506 on 10/16/2007 02:28:35 AM >
rhammans

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RE: Losses on Octber 7-8, 1944? - 10/16/2007 05:36:09 PM
Thanks for the info.

Another forum contributor (Erich)  has said that of the 3 B-24 claims that day by Kdo. Nowotny, only one was eventually confirmed. So there may only be one plane in the end. (I've heard back from all but three groups, so it's narrowed down considerably.)

If I had bought Walt Mundy's newer book, I probably could have looked the 44th up myself

I blew the 8 October date. I was actually looking for 8 November.  I don't plan to re-post for that, however.

Reed
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RE: Losses on Octber 7-8, 1944? - 10/17/2007 07:43:43 PM
No there were definately Three downed that day. Have the actual statements made by crewmembers from each aircraft.
 
8 November 1944  11 aircraft sent to Rheine M/Y but due to very poor weather and 10/10 cloud cover Enschede Railroad yard was bombed by mistake. No resistance no losses.
 
rhammans

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RE: Losses on Octber 7-8, 1944? - 10/17/2007 09:36:17 PM
Thank you very much for the additional information. Sounds like two of the claims were disallowed, despite the fact that all three claims were valid.

"Have the actual statements made by crewmembers from each aircraft."

Do you have access to those statements or know where they might be found? I'm still trying to nail down the groups and have heard back from all but three, or have other information indicating no missions or no losses.

Thanks.

Reed
66-506

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RE: Losses on Octber 7-8, 1944? - 10/18/2007 11:12:06 PM
Kassel, Germany 7 October 1944
The Group attacked the Tank Factory at Kassels with 37 aircraft. Flak at target was intense and
accurate, with the 506th Squadron losing two planes and another was forced to land at Brussels,
Belgium with the pilot seriously wounded.

506th SQUADRON:
506th Sq., #42-50789 Bar-A, Salfen LAKANOOKIE MACR #9343

506th Squadron Crew:
SALFEN, WILLIAM S. Pilot 1st Lt. O’Fallon,
ASN 0-705812 POW Missouri
IDEN, DONALD B. Co-pilot 2nd Lt. Visalia,
ASN 0-767814 POW California
VETTER, EDWARD F. Navigator 2nd Lt. Topeka,
ASN 0-1108389 POW Kansas
BAUMAN, MORTON Bombardier 1st Lt. West New York,
ASN 0-685421 POW New Jersey
BAGGETT, CARNEY W. Jr. Engineer T/Sgt. Clarksville,
ASN 34715099 POW Tennessee
DOHERTY, ROBERT L. Radio Oper. S/Sgt. Grove City,
ASN 13039292 KIA Pennsylvania
SUSZEK, LEO C. RW Gunner Sgt. Detroit,
ASN 36422846 POW/Injured Michigan
SINCLAIR, NORMAN L. LW Gunner Sgt. West De Pere,
ASN 36803002 POW Wisconsin
BUCKLEY, FRANCIS X. Tail Turret Sgt. Troy,
ASN 13124177 KIA New York
The MACR states that this aircraft, #789, was last seen in vicinity of Kassels at 1224 hours. #1
and #2 engines had been knocked out by flak and it fell out of formation, under control. It was
last heard from at approximately 1239 hours calling on VHF for fighter support. It was believed
to be trying for or heading toward friendly territory.
Lt. Donald B. Iden, co-pilot, sent the following information: “We had just closed the bomb bay
doors after releasing bombs over Kassel when our plane, which was named LAKANOOKIE,
took two bursts of flak. One hit the left wing and the other went into the tail section. The hit in
the wing took out the #1 and #2 engines, so that made it impossible to keep a heading without
complete cross-control of ailerons and rudders. Needless to say, loss of altitude was very rapid.
“We rode it down to 1,500 feet, at which time we bailed out and soon were captured. After
Salfen and I bailed out, the aircraft entered a flat spin, crashed and burned.
“No, Leo Suszek was not an evadee – he was captured by the Germans as were the rest of us.
But, somehow, he was badly injured on bailout. When we last saw him on the ground, he was
unable to converse and appeared to be in extreme pain. I thought he had internal injuries of some
kind. We gave him an injection of morphine before he was taken away.

“We were told that Robert Doherty’s parachute failed to open. Apparently Francis Buckley went
down with the aircraft. I can only assume that he probably was unable to bail out, but for reasons
unknown. Possibly the flak hit in the rear could have injured him or damaged his chute.
“Spent the rest of the duration at Barth, Germany – Stalag Luft I. After the war, Suszek visited
me two or three times before he headed for the V.A. Hospital in Tucson, Arizona. I have not
heard from him since.”
The second 506th aircraft that failed to return was piloted by Homer E. Still and Francis C.
Welborn.
506th SQUADRON:
506th Sq., #44-40167 Bar-Y, Still SIERRA BLANCA MACR #9342
506th Squadron Crew:
STILL, HOMER E. Pilot 2nd Lt. Jacksonville,
ASN 0-462673 POW Florida
WELBORN, FRANCIS C. Co-pilot 2nd Lt. Lexington,
ASN 0-828847 POW Kentucky
WILSON, JOHN E. Navigator Flt Of. Beeville,
ASN T-126388 POW Texas
STRUNC, HENRY Bombardier 2nd Lt. Staple Hurst,
ASN 0-776824 POW Nebraska
WESSMAN, HELGE E. Engineer S/Sgt. West Orange,
ASN 32432466 KIA New Jersey
LORD, JOHN B. Radio Oper. S/Sgt. Maywood,
ASN 16081465 POW, burned Illinois
HIBBS, LEO R. Hatch Gun. Sgt. Corydon,
ASN 35809558 KIA Indiana
WYANT, JOHN C. RW Gunner Sgt. Uniontown,
ASN 13169581 POW Pennsylvania
DAHLIN, JOHN K. LW Gunner Sgt. Worcester,
ASN 11067243 POW Massachusetts
BUHL, VERNON Tail Turret Sgt. Whitehall,
ASN 39621427 KIA Montana
The MACR relates that aircraft #167 was last observed in target area at Kassel. Bombs were
away at 1224 hours under heavy anti aircraft fire. This plane then dropped slightly behind the
formation.
Sgt. John Dahlin made the statements that, “Our plane was hit by flak and set on fire. Seven of
us bailed out. The plane broke into pieces soon afterwards. I met the other six men who had
bailed out safely, but none of us ever again saw Sgt. Hibbs. Later, a German Major told me that
three bodies were found in the crashed plane. He had a correct list of names of the missing crew
members.”
Radio Operator John Lord sent a tape of his experiences, “September 1st was our first mission as
a crew. The pilot, Still, and co-pilot Welborn had flown one other combat mission prior to this.
But on our first mission, the tail hit a white fence at end of runway – I could see pieces of the
fly! We [later] dropped our 1,000 pound bombs through the bomb bay doors. Not a very
good way to start.
“On the 7 October mission to Kassels, being the newest crew, we got one of the oldest planes to
fly. It was patched up, my radio table was broken off, no place to write. [Editor’s note: Aircraft
received from the 492nd Bomb Group when that Group was de-activated.]
“When we opened the bomb bay doors, I could see the flash of flak guns shooting at us. We had
trouble with one engine losing power, finally had to feather it. Not then being able to keep up
with the formation, we began to fall behind. Our pilot, Homer Still, asked John Wilson,
navigator, for a heading to fly back over France.
“Another engine on the right side was lost, making two of them feathered on that side of the
wing, and we were in deep trouble. About that time I heard a loud POP and then saw our copilot,
Welborn, open the top hatch and climb out! When I turned around and looked into the
bomb bay, I saw the reason for that exit. It was full of flames.
“How was I to get out? Normally I could have climbed up on the radio table and pulled myself
up though that same top hatch, but the table was broken. I had my chest pack chute on but in a
dilemma as what to do when the plane made my decision for me – it turned upside down. I then
fell out of that open top hatch – well, almost out. My heated suit and intercom plugs were
holding me tight. I quickly broke or tore them loose and fell free.
“I found myself in a head first position and slowly spinning so that I had little sense of falling. I
guess that my altitude at that time to be about 17,000 feet. Slowly I saw the ground getting
closer, pulled my ring and thankfully saw my chute blossom out. Looking down, I could see a
round, burning area of incendiaries, so I pulled on some shroud lines and missed the fire, and
landed in an open field. Then a large piece of the aircraft – the waist area – came down close to
me. I suspect that the plane had exploded for that piece to hit like that.
“I had burns on my left hand and around my eyes. A young German lad of about 8 to 10 years
old, helped me with my chute. Then German soldiers came running up, holding pistols on me. I
had landed close to a Signal Corps practicing in the woods, unfortunately, with no possibility of
evasion.
“They took me to a dispensary where I was bandaged on my hand and face. While I was there
several teen-aged boys, who had been manning a flak gun nearby, came in to see me. They
thought they had shot us down. Both Dahlin and Wyant had been shot at as they were coming
down. I also learned that Welborn hit his head on something when he left through the top hatch,
severely damaging his eye. I later got gangrene in my burned left hand, was treated by some
British doctors who had been captured earlier, but suffered no permanent damage – thanks to
them.”
Seriously wounded on this same mission to Kassel was 2nd Lt. John W. Jones, Jr.
506th SQUADRON:
506th Sq., #42-50894 Bar-N, Jones Returned
506th Squadron Crewman:
JONES, JOHN W. Pilot 2nd Lt. Tucson,
ASN 0-764327 Seriously Wounded Arizona

HOLCOMBE, CLEMENT R.C. Co-pilot 2nd Lt. Michigan
ASN 0-772376 Wounded
WESTENHISER, JAMES T. Navigator 2nd Lt.
ASN 0-712964
BAIER, EDWARD A. Bombardier 2nd Lt.
ASN 0-768980
KIRKLAND, ROBERT E. Engineer S/Sgt. Coal Valley,
ASN 34803237 Slight Wound Alabama
VAN EPPS, ELWOOD Radio Oper. S/Sgt.
ASN 36815930
SIMON, R. E. Ball Turret Sgt.
ASN 35679039
GARZA, RAUL RW Gunner Sgt. Port Lavaca,
ASN 38541707 Texas
HAGGARD, ROBERT G. LW Gunner Sgt. Los Angeles,
ASN 18202891 California
HAGE, MITRY K. Tail Turret Sgt.
ASN 38555766
Note: Sgt. Garza was KIA on 30 October 1944.
Aircraft #894 received a direct hit in the bomb bay and #1 engine, which had to be feathered.
The aircraft headed for friendly territory and landed at Brussels. The pilot, Lt. Jones, had been
hit in both legs, had his left leg amputated when treated at the 8th British Army Hospital.
2nd Lt. Clement R.C. Holcombe, co-pilot on this aircraft, was instrumental in making the safe
emergency landing without a pilot. He states that, “The mission was to Kassel and the target was
the Tiger Tank Factory. We were hit on the bomb run before dropping our bomb load. Lt. Jones
was injured and I was hit in the back of my left shoulder, rendering my left arm useless.
“Sgt. Kirkland, engineer, also was hit, but fortunately his flak suit protected him from serious
injury. The right wing fuel tanks were punctured and both #1 & #2 engines were damaged and
lost normal power. The radio was damaged and I learned later that we were transmitting all right
but could not receive. Adding to our problems was our compass which was malfunctioning and
would not indicate correctly. #4 engine caught fire briefly, but it was blown out because we lost
a few thousand feet in a hurry.
“When I finally got the plane straightened out, the formation was gone. I got Sgt. Kirkland to
help Lt. Jones from his position and had him get into Jones’ seat to handle the throttles and help
me with the rudder pedals. With my injured left arm I could not manipulate the throttles or other
controls which were on my left side. The plane was ‘crabbing’ due to the uneven power output
between the left and right sides, making straight flight most difficult.
“We salvoed our bombs to help hold altitude and tried to contact our ‘little friends’, but were not
able to contact any of the fighters. Since Jones was hurt badly, and we were losing fuel steadily,
I was afraid we might have to ditch if we continued towards England, and probably couldn’t get
Jones out from a ditching situation.
“Lt. Westenhiser, navigator, found that Strip B-58, near Brussels, had very recently been taken
from the Germans, so we decided to try to land there. With the compass screwed up, we just
plain lucked out, finding it on the first pass.

“I followed a B-17 in on the final, (approach leg) but he did not make it, and crashed just short of
the runway. There were bomb craters everywhere, but enough had been filled in to make a
landing possible.
“With Sgt. Kirkland handling the throttles, I got the plane down OK. Jones and I were taken to
the hospital. A day or two later, I was able to walk around with my arm in a sling. Our crew
hitched a ride back to England in a C-54, but we hit bad weather and had to land near Dover.
Next morning the C54 dropped us off right in front of the control tower!
“This was our seventh mission, but I spent some time in the hospital before going on to fly 23
more missions before returning to the States. Other than Lt. Jones, Raul Garza, who was our ball
turret gunner, was the only other crewman who didn’t complete his tour. He went down over
Germany while flying a make up mission.” [30 October 1944]
Lt. Holcombe was recommended for the Silver Star medal for his remarkably safe emergency
landing under the most trying of conditions. But this modest pilot never mentioned this
commendation in his letter   
Enschede Mission # 251 11/8/44
The ordered Primary was Rheine M/Y and the 44th dispatched 11 aircraft. The Groups briefed position was low Group in the Wing, second Wing in the Division. However, assembly was not accomplished because of the severe weather conditions in the form of heavy contrails and poor visibility and other changes in instructions. The formation proceeded on the briefed course to the target. Personnel error caused mis-interpretation and Enschede rather than Rheine was attacked hitting the railroad 1-1/2 miles east of town. The bombing was done through 10/10th cloud cover and results were poor. One aircraft bombed visually a factory northwest of the railroad objective. There was no enemy resistance and no losses. Lt. Struther's navigator, Lt. Carl Appelin termed the results "Pitiful - only plowed up some Brussel sprouts." 
 
Roger vp/historian 44thBGVA
<message edited by 66-506 on 10/18/2007 11:16:38 PM >
rhammans

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RE: Losses on Octber 7-8, 1944? - 10/19/2007 05:55:27 PM
Thank you for your replies. This last one must have taken a great deal of time to do, and I really appreciate it. It's definitely a keeper, and I'll retain it for possible use in a future issue of a newsletter I help edit.

I think we're down to 2-3 groups now, as possible victims of the German jets on October 7. It's become an interesting question. I hope we're able to identify the planes lost to the jets that day.

Again, that was a heck of a post. My sincere thanks.

Reed
66-506

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RE: Losses on Octber 7-8, 1944? - 10/20/2007 11:55:21 AM
Doesn't have to be the Eighth AF.  You Might check with the 15th AF B-24 groups. They hit Germany daily from their bases in Italy, and may have encountered the 262's on those dates.
shooshoobaby

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RE: Losses on Octber 7-8, 1944? - 10/20/2007 12:49:25 PM
B - 24 # 41 - 29515  489th BG , 847th Sq.
Shot Down by LW Fighter  10/7/44
Crashed near Schale , Ge.
MACR # 9752   9 KIA
Mike

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