Homeless Insignia?

I thought I had this pretty well sorted out until I recently received a
communication from a friend concerning concerning this insignia.
I had always believed that this design was directly connected to the
346thFS during the period that P-38's were assigned to that unit.

My recent information informs me that this patch was worn by pilots
of all three squadrons within the group who conducted high altitude
intercept missions with the Lightning.

If anybody can help resolve this issue I'd appreciate hearing from you.

Bob
   

Attached Image(s)

That is the first I have heard that story. There are two versions of this patch as you can see on my web site. I look forward to hearing from the 346th guys on this one. I know a couple of the 345th pilots who flew the P-38s and this patch never came up. I am curious about your source. Is it from a pilot who flew the lightening in the 345th or 347th by chance? Everyone I see wearing this patch is a 346th member only.
Keith

Keith,

The source of this information is not a WWII vet, but according to him
this subject came up at an insignia collectors show last year in Dallas.

According to the conversation, this design was unofficially adopted when
all three squadrons were assigned two P-38's each, for the purpose already
mentioned.

It's the first I've heard of it also, and the reason I posted this query.

Bob

Bob,
I will ask around with the pilots EM and look into my other data sources. If I can find a daily diary from the 346th as regards this patch, perhaps we can confirm or lay this story to rest.
Keith

The book The Memory is still Fresh has the squadron "patch" at the start of each chapter and this patch above is in all P-39 chapters or one that is close to it.
The snakes in the patch are Cobra's which is part of the P-39's nickname Airacobra.
So I'm thinking it has nothing to do with the P-38,a guess on my part.
Rick

Little Vic II


Bob,
I will ask around with the pilots EM and look into my other data sources. If I can find a daily diary from the 346th as regards this patch, perhaps we can confirm or lay this story to rest.
Keith

Keith,

I'll appreciate any authoritative feedback you can come up with. I've pored over my file on the
350thFG and all three squadrons, and all I've been able to come up with are a few photos
showing pilots with this insignia sewn onto their flight jackets.

There is one grainy photo depicting what may be this design painted on the starboard
forward fuselage of a P-39. The name of the a/c is 'Rowdy III'(?), but additional information.
It might be that Rick is right and that this design actually predates the Lightning altogether.

If anyone anyone happens to have a high res image of 'Rowdy III' I'd appreciate it you
passed it along so I can better scrutinize the details on the fuselage.

Bob

Doesn't sound right to me either, Bob, although I'm certainly no expert.  What makes me doubt it is this:

1. In the attached picture, Hugh Dow (at that time of the 346th) is next to his P-39, which clearly has the "Swift-Deadly" emblem painted on the side.  Why would you paint a P-38 emblem on your P-39?

2.  In the second attached picture, we see a Devilhawk P-39 with what we all recognize as the 345th emblem painted in the same place.  (Granted, this is unusual placement in both cases -- normally P-39 squadrons seemed to adorn the doors of their aircraft with squadron logos.  In the case of the 345th and 346th, their buzz numbers were located on the doors so this was impossible.)

3.  Some members continued to wear the old emblem on their jackets even into the P-47 years, but I have only ever seen it on 346th personnel.

4.  Shuford Alexander (who designed the Goofy insignia) at one time painted over the "Celer-Letalis" ("Swift-Deadly") with "Slow-Easy" (or something to that effect -- dang it it was posted here somewhere and I can't find it!) because he thought "Swift-Deadly" was not an apt descriptor of the P-39.  Said he doesn't know how Dow managed to shoot 2 german planes down with the Airacobra (represented by the two swastikas on Rowdy III in the attached picture).

I would think that Hugh Dow would be able to provide the definitive answer on this, but I will run it by a pilot who flew with the 347th in the P-38 days.

-- Tom

Attached Image(s)

Grandson of 1st Lt. Bernell A. "Barney" Forster (1921-2007)
347th Fighter Squadron/350th Fighter Group

Well, I'm the guy who had that insignia recreated for the 350th FG reunion in Albuquerque a few years ago.  It is the North Africa logo for the 346th FS.  Nothing More.  Hugh Dow helped with the recreation and another 346th pilot (sorry forgot name) in Tucson took an original (hand sewn in Sicily) over to the emblem maker to work from.

Never heard of P-38s being with any of the 350th FG units but I don't know much.  But do know it'll soon be confirmed by the surviving men that were there that what you posted was the squadron logo for the 346th fighter squadron while they were in North Africa.  The cartoon logo with the P-47 came later.  And, of course the cobras were for Airacobra.

I'm down on the Hopi reservation borrowing a computer to check email or I'd post a copy of some of the pics and the replica patch.

But, be assured, men who were with the 346th FS in North Africa were graciously helpful in creating the replica patch and will confirm that the skull and cobras logo was the 346th FS (P-39s and P-400s only) insignia during the "pre-Goofy in a P-47" era.

Ron

Son of Ron Macdonald Flying Sgt. 59th OTU RAF (Hurris & Spits, Dieppe raid), Lt. with 346thFS/350thFG North Africa (P-39s). Shot down at Kasserine. Instructor with the 1053 BFTS Randolph, 2138 BU Craig, 2532BU Randolph, & 2543 BU Waco (AT-6s &

Looks like we're getting close to sorting this matter out once and
for all, thanks to deductive reasoning and collective experience.

Thanks to all you guys for your input, and I'll look forward to any
additional insight any of you may have concerning this insignia.

Is this Forum great or what?

Bob

Bob,
I agree with everything Tom, Ron, and Rick are saying. It is true that each squadron had two P-38s but only a few of the pilots in each actually flew them. Getting a patch designed and approved (yes, the insignias did have to go up the chain to the states and back down before they were official) doesn't make sense for the P-38 usage. And talk about a moral buster, a patch for just a few would really be divisive within the squadron. Not to mention we have photos of 346th pilots wearing the patch who did not fly the P-38.

No it is of course impossible to prove a negative.......

But we are absolutely certain that the "Celar-Letalis" is the 346th FS's patch designed for the P-39 years and was later changed to the "Goofy" patch because the Cobras were no longer applicable to the P-47s.

I am grateful that the forum exists and rumors can be stopped from spreading fairly quickly. So thanks for asking.

Kasserine Kid


Well, I'm the guy who had that insignia recreated for the 350th FG reunion in Albuquerque a few years ago.  It is the North Africa logo for the 346th FS.  Nothing More.  Hugh Dow helped with the recreation and another 346th pilot (sorry forgot name) in Tucson took an original (hand sewn in Sicily) over to the emblem maker to work from.
Never heard of P-38s being with any of the 350th FG units...
Ron

Good to hear from you Ron -- I was wondering when you'd show up on this thread.  P-38's came after your dad left.  Once the Germans were driven from Africa, the 350th was mostly responsible for hundreds of miles of coastal defense.  Germans used to send high speed/hi-alt recce flights over (JU88 and the like), and the P-39's just didn't have enough umph to scramble and catch them.  2 or 3 P-38's were given to each squadron in the 350th for just this purpose -- they'd sit "alert" on the runway, and when radar detected a bogey the tower would shoot a flare.  The P-38's would take off and be vectored in to the target.  Most of the 347th pre-P-47 air-to-air victories were achieved by these P-38's (347th P-38 "Peggy Anne" attached).

As to the patch, "Fighter" Smith confirms that the Skull 'n' Cobra patch didn't appear on any 347th planes (even the P-38's) or jackets.  Like Keith, I think this myth is busted.  Raises a question I've asked before (but still don't know):  was the 346th always known as the Checkerboard Squadron, or did they have another moniker in the P-39 years?  In other words, were they named FOR the checkers on the P-47 tails, or were the aircraft markings finally catching up with the squadron name?

Attached Image(s)

Grandson of 1st Lt. Bernell A. "Barney" Forster (1921-2007)
347th Fighter Squadron/350th Fighter Group

Little Vic II


Bob,
I agree with everything Tom, Ron, and Rick are saying. It is true that each squadron had two P-38s but only a few of the pilots in each actually flew them. Getting a patch designed and approved (yes, the insignias did have to go up the chain to the states and back down before they were official) doesn't make sense for the P-38 usage. And talk about a moral buster, a patch for just a few would really be divisive within the squadron. Not to mention we have photos of 346th pilots wearing the patch who did not fly the P-38.

No it is of course impossible to prove a negative.......

But we are absolutely certain that the "Celar-Letalis" is the 346th FS's patch designed for the P-39 years and was later changed to the "Goofy" patch because the Cobras were no longer applicable to the P-47s.

I am grateful that the forum exists and rumors can be stopped from spreading fairly quickly. So thanks for asking.

Keith,

This a common problem with so many AAF insignia that, for one reason or another, were never officially
approved by the  Army's Board of Heraldry. A great deal of my research time always ends up confronting
the various myths and legends associated with so many of them. I used to have to wait for weeks at a time
for a response to my query's from the various research facilities around the country. Like as not, when the
response did arrive they didn't provide a satisfactory answer to my search questions anyway.  I still have to
keep using them but now I'm not totally at their mercy anymore.

That's what's so great about this Forum, you get a lot of instantaneous feedback to your questions. While
the answers may not be 'empirical' in nature, they do provide a lot of invaluable insight into a subject under
study. The answers are all out there, it's just a matter of finding the right person(s) and asking the right
questions, and the AAF Forum has a lot of the right people.

Bob

Okay, home from Hopi rez.  I also have a pic of a 346th FS skull patch on an A2 Jacket in Italy, but someone sent it to me, so may be one of the above.  Lost Hugh Dow's pics with the 346th skull patch on his jacket in a hard drive crash a while back.

Here's a pic of the replica 346th FS skull patch that was designed from an original hand sewn in Sicily.

The other patch is made from the 350th FG logo in the book on the 350th FG.  Apparently no actual 350th patch was made during the war.



Ron

Son of Ron Macdonald Flying Sgt. 59th OTU RAF (Hurris & Spits, Dieppe raid), Lt. with 346thFS/350thFG North Africa (P-39s). Shot down at Kasserine. Instructor with the 1053 BFTS Randolph, 2138 BU Craig, 2532BU Randolph, & 2543 BU Waco (AT-6s &

Okay, here's the pic I have with the 346th FG skull on an A2 jacket.  Pretty sure someone on this board sent it to me.  Sorry who has become buried.  But it does show that emblem being used in Italy after North Africa.

Ron

Son of Ron Macdonald Flying Sgt. 59th OTU RAF (Hurris & Spits, Dieppe raid), Lt. with 346thFS/350thFG North Africa (P-39s). Shot down at Kasserine. Instructor with the 1053 BFTS Randolph, 2138 BU Craig, 2532BU Randolph, & 2543 BU Waco (AT-6s &

Kasserine Kid

The other patch is made from the 350th FG logo in the book on the 350th FG.  Apparently no actual 350th patch was made during the war.
Ron

Has anyone seen any wartime use of the 350th insignia?  The only period use I've ever seen is in the 350th FG book.

Grandson of 1st Lt. Bernell A. "Barney" Forster (1921-2007)
347th Fighter Squadron/350th Fighter Group

Tom,

I've still trying to locate that 'empirical' evidence I talked about earlier.
All I have for certain are two distinct arguments. The first is that this design
is of post war origin, the other maintains that this insignia was in fact designed
in early 1945 and submitted through all the proper chanells for official approval.
The approval process at that time was between six to nine months. As you
know the 350thFG returned to the U.S. and was deactivated in November 1945.
This 'could'  account for this design never finishing the approval process, or it
could have been bounced back to Group for revision but by the time it arrived
there was nobody home.

I'm still trying to resolve this one (and others) via the official snail mail
institutions, in hopes of finally locating a paper trail on this insignia. If I get
anything concrete back I'll be sure to let you know.

Bob

Kasserine Kid


Okay, home from Hopi rez.  I also have a pic of a 346th FS skull patch on an A2 Jacket in Italy, but someone sent it to me, so may be one of the above.  Lost Hugh Dow's pics with the 346th skull patch on his jacket in a hard drive crash a while back.

Here's a pic of the replica 346th FS skull patch that was designed from an original hand sewn in Sicily.

The other patch is made from the 350th FG logo in the book on the 350th FG.  Apparently no actual 350th patch was made during the war.



Ron

Ron,

Hope you didn't rush home on our account but
thanks for taking the time to post these images.
Thanks also for the input on this matter.

Bob

Here is an interesting image. An excerpt from the 345th "Whistle" Specifically asking the same question about the 350th insignia we are asking - but back in the day. I was sending a friend some images of resources such as the DORS, Whistle, Diaries etc and happened to flip to this page.
I would repost pictures of the original patch and folks wearing them but you all have my website. Just link to 350th patches. Eventually, I will post only the original patches in one section with close ups of those on jackets. It gets confusing when we look at the reproductions. If you see them enough times you start to think they are the originals. I hope you find this letter to the editor interesting.
Keith

Attached Image(s)

Tom,
We might as well add a 347th P-39 with insignia to the mix eh?

Attached Image(s)

Little Vic II


Here are some interesting images if I can figure out how to load themso they are readable. First, An excerpt from the 345th "Whistle"Specifically asking the same question about the 350th insignia we areasking - but back in the day. I randomly was sending a friend some images ofresources such as the DORS, Whistle, Diaries etc and happened to flipto this page.
I would repost pictures of the original patch and folks wearing thembut you all have my website. Just link to 350th patches. Eventually, Iwill post only the original patches in one section with close ups ofthose on jackets. It gets confusing when we look at the reproductions.If you see them enough times you start to think they are the originals.I hope you find this letter to the editor interesting.
Keith

Great material Keith!

Could you give us any additional background
on this newsletter, i.e., dates, etc?

Bob