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Hot!Help needed to find any information about my Father's B17

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g35bob
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Help needed to find any information about my Father's B17

I posted this request in the 97th BS forum with not luck so I will try here and maybe some kind soul can help me out.
I am the son of Bob B Carey. My Dad was a Tail Gunner who flew 35 Missions between Sept 1944 and April 1945 in the 97th BG 342 BS. Dad passed away in Jan. 1983 and I have been collecting all his WW2 items since. Like most from that time, he didn't speak of his time overseas much and I don't have a lot of information but I would like to share what I have.  
I will start with his plane and crew just before they shipped out: 
B17G "Bitter Bitch" 
Crew #6283 at HQ 223RD AAF Base Unit (CCTS (H)) AAF, Dyersburg, Tennessee   20 June 1944 
Pilot:  Donald L Dupertuis 
CP:     Richard J Austin 
B:       Grayson F Fice 
AEG:   Warren C Vance 
ROG:   George E Gardiner 
AG:     Randolph R Nyquist 
SBG:   Fred B Crockett 
SUG:   Eugene R James 
TG:      Bobbie B Carey  
This information is from his "Special orders Number 172   20 June 1944"  It has crews # 6267 through #6322 with their rank and serial #s. Marked RESTRICTED 
Below is a picture of dads crew with their names listed on the photo, also a picture of him before his last mission standing by the tail of his plane. The name of the plane he flew on was "The Bitter Bitch" which was shot down in Dec. 1944 over Yugoslavia. His crew survived and was picked up by the Partisans and safely hidden till they could be flown back to their base. I have checked the research page here to no avail and have been checking any books and internet sites I can find for years. I am at a dead end and hope there is someone here that can help.
Take care, 
Bob 
I did find out the plane below 2671 was most likely a Training plane at Dyersburg, Tennessee. The second picture is my Dad outside his tent with a sign with the image of the Bitter Bitch. Third was last mission 4/12/1945.

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493rdBG
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Re:Help needed to find any information about my Father's B17 (permalink)
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Hello Bob,
 
The tail of the B-17 in the third photo is B-17G 44-6724 which left the U.S. around 7 Nov 1944 and was assigned to the 97th BG on 6 Mar 1945.  It was salvaged by the 9th Air Force somewhere in Germany on 10 May 1946.  This information is from Roger Freeman's book "The B-17 Flying Fortress Story".
 
I checked my copy of Roger Forman's book "B-17 Flying Fortress Nose Art Directory" and there is no B-17 with the name "Bitter Bitch".  Lots of planes were named, however, if the correct paperwork wasn't completed then it would be very hard to find it today.
 
I tried to find a Missing Air Crew Report for this crash (using the Fold3.com web page) with no luck.  You did mention that they successfully evaded.  However, a MACR would have been likely because the plane would not have returned with the rest of the mission and knowledge of being helped by Partisans would not likely have been known until the crew returned to Allied forces.
 
Also, a crew seldom had a plane that could be called "theirs".  In most cases flying the same plane 5 to 10 times out of 30+ missions was rare for the 493rd BG.
 
I know this is not what you were looking for, but at least wanted to pass on information I found.
 
Good luck.
 
 

David Schmitt
d.schmitt@prodigy.net
son of 1st LT Donald J. Schmitt, USAAF, co-pilot
assigned to 493rd BG/863rd BS at Debach, England
from Nov 1944 thru May 1945
25Kingman49
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Re:Help needed to find any information about my Father's B17 (permalink)
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Bob,
 
Not sure I can be very much help either as you already appear to have a good deal of information.
 
The full aircraft designator I believe to be B-17G-60-DL-44-6724, although not listed by Joe Baugher this fits the range of B-17G production.
Long Beach C/N 22947
Source: http://www.abcdlist.nl/douglas_longbeach_03.html
 
I have not been able to find a MACR for this incident in Yugoslavia December 1944 on fold3 or elsewhere.
 
It would appear from this link that information on the 97th BG is slim http://www.reddog1944.com/97th_BG_Comments_and_Corrections.htm
 
Good hunting,
Scott
g35bob
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Re:Help needed to find any information about my Father's B17 (permalink)
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David and Scott,
Thank you so much for the additional information. I talked to my Mother (she's 86) she remembers receiving notification around Christmas 1944 and I think I remember my Dad saying they were in Yugoslavia for 2 weeks before being airlifted out and back to base. I guess it could have been in November 1944. I have his mission list and am going to look for a 2 week gap around that time. I thought my Dad also said they were shot down by flak over Vienna, but that might not be accurate. They didn't bail out, but belly landed and all survived. Although I know at least one crew member was killed later in the plane but I am not sure which one. My mother thinks it was the belly gunner who was my Dad's best friend. I believe his crew flew together for most of their missions until late in the war when my Dad said he would catch a flight on any mission to complete his 35.
Which means he may have flown only the one time on 44-6724. 
Thanks again and take care,
Bob
Below is a picture I took in Phoenix, Az around 1979 of my Dad holding a diorama of his plane, 342th Squadron patch and additional items I built for him. The plane has A/C 44-6724 markings.

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jpeters140
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Re:Help needed to find any information about my Father's B17 (permalink)
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Bob...FYI...There were many names assigned to aircraft, and there is a problem...in order for the name to be recognized, the name or nose art HAS to be in a photo of the nose art/name with the DAIA information that is stenciled below the LEFT pilot's sliding window or nearby...Most nose art/names are shown of the RIGHT side of the nose. The other requirement is that the tail number appear in the photo.
Consequently, there are MANY names/nose art that cannot be positively ID'd to a tail number.
 
I have a copy of DickDrain's 5thWing History that lists ALL 5th Wing B-17s and where applicable also lists the aircraft name (If it had one)...also many aircraft HAD no name or nose art.
 
Also there is no mention in Dick Drain's book of the refereneced crew, and, there in addition, neither is there any mention of a 97th BG B-17 being lost in December 1944, that lists your crew, in the 97th BG Hsistolry book VENIT HORA, on any date in December 1944.
 
Jim :-)

James S. Peters Sr. T/Sgt B-17 Flt Engr, 27 missions 99 BG, 348BS, 5th Wing, 15th AAF Tortorella, (Foggia#2), Italy My Tour was from 12/03/44-06/19/45 M/Sgt USAF (Retired)
g35bob
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Re:Help needed to find any information about my Father's B17 (permalink)
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Thanks Jim,
I guess my next question would be why is there no mention of this crew anywhere? Is, as mentioned, is the information on the 342nd scarce or incomplete? Not sure where to look next, I been hitting a dead end for 20 years. I have not been able to find anything on any of these crew members. I know Dad said 97th 342nd was correct and I have his mission diary so I know when they served and missions flown. I have just enough that Dad left to keep me looking. Not sure where to look next?
As far as the nose art, not surprised nothing was found, I believe it was never painted on the nose of any of his planes. Also I think if they took the time to take a picture of the "Bitter Bitch" crew sign in front of their tent they would have most likely taken one of the plane's nose if it was painted on it.
I did check his mission diary and there was only a few gaps between missions where he could have been shot down.
Dec. 26, 1944 Oderau? Germany  O/R  to Jan. 8, 1945 Linz, Aus  M/Y
Jan. 8, 1945 Linz, Aus  M/Y to   Jan. 21 1945 Vienna, Aus  O/R
Jan. 21 1945 Vienna, Aus  O/R to Feb. 1 1945 Graz, Aus M/Y
Feb. 27, 1945 Augsburg, Ger  M/Y  to  Mar. 16, 1945 Ryland, Kolin Ger  O/R 
I guess these could have also been caused by weather and he did go to Rome on leave as I have some pictures, but no dates.
Any thoughts? Thanks again everyone.
Take care,
Bob

Bob Carey son of Bob B Carey 15th AAF 97th BG 342 BS
jpeters140
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Re:Help needed to find any information about my Father's B17 (permalink)
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Bob....Drain lists 44-6724 as assigned 6 Mar 45, and says aircraft salvaged oversea 22 March 1946.
 
Jim :-)

James S. Peters Sr. T/Sgt B-17 Flt Engr, 27 missions 99 BG, 348BS, 5th Wing, 15th AAF Tortorella, (Foggia#2), Italy My Tour was from 12/03/44-06/19/45 M/Sgt USAF (Retired)
g35bob
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Re:Help needed to find any information about my Father's B17 (permalink)
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Thanks again Jim,
Another question, going through my Dad's mission log I see he flew several "Lone Raids". I surmise that means a single aircraft raid but how did that work? Did the plane take off with the others then break off to a separate target? Or, did it just take off by it's self and head to a target? Was this common practice for crews or did only certain crews fly lone raid missions? Below I listed the missions he listed as a lone raid.
Oct. 26, 1944 Innsbruck, Aus  M/Y
Nov. 1, 1944 Maribon? Yugo  M/Y
Nov. 7, 1944 Vienna, Aus  O/R
Dec. 12, 1944 Mopelin? Ger City
The Dec. 12 mission he noted "today we got lost" and I remember he said while they were lost their plane flew right over Hitler's Eagle's Nest at Berchtesgaden.
Thanks in advance,
Bob

Bob Carey son of Bob B Carey 15th AAF 97th BG 342 BS
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Re:Help needed to find any information about my Father's B17 (permalink)
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Hi, My father was Richard J. Austin, the copilot of the crew listed in your post.  You seem to know a lot more than I do, but maybe I can help you out with the story my father told (one of the few he would tell) about the Dec. 12, 1944 mission on which they "got lost."  On that day, as my father told it, there was a new navigator to the crew.  At some point early on, my father noticed that by following the navigator's directions, they peeled off from the rest of the squadron.  They were really quite young, you know, and my father decided to "initiate" the new navigator by not saying anything about it.  On and on they flew and never came to their target (surprise, surprise).  They also did not fly over any secondary target, so they decided to drop their propaganda "bombs" and go home.  The propaganda bombs were filled with the "christmas cards" from one of your other posts. Later they worked over the the navigator's data and figured out that they had dropped the propaganda on the Eagle's Nest as in your father's diary.
 
My father passed in 2004, but my mother lives near you in Oakhurst.  If you would like I will ask her if she is willing to let you contact her.  She has photos and may have some information you would be interested in.  Please send my a private message if you are interested.
 
 
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Re:Help needed to find any information about my Father's B17 (permalink)
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P.S.  You may wonder why they did not get shot down flying over Hitler's headquarters.  My father said that they learned there was another B-17 flying in the vicinity that day that had been captured and was therefore "friendly" to the Germans.  They believed that their plane was mistaken for the friendly plane and the two were not seen at the same time from the ground.
buckeyeuk
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Re:Help needed to find any information about my Father's B17 (permalink)
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Sarah     ex-Luftwaffe personnel have always denied that captured B-17s were deliberately used to confuse or infiltrate US formations ; the list are those I've found to be flown by KG.200 on special operations, as you see they were marked with either the Wing's "A3" code or factory 4-letter codes (Stammkennzeichen) and they certainly had German insignia. They flew night missions with the undersides re-painted black and they would have been very obvious in daylight.
P.W. Stahl in his history "KG.200 the true story" ( he is an ex-pilot in the Wing) makes this clear ; eg. a B-17G flew a night ferry flight on 16 Jan. 1945 to Finsterwalde between 1010 and12.05 with markings A3--BB.
There is no doubt though that B-17s ( and 24s) were seen to behave in a suspicious way in daylight and Me.109s were encountered in British or US markings ( including D-Day stripes).
The captured B-17swere given the cover designation "Dornier 200" and the Zirkus Rosarius unit ( 2./Versuchsverband Ob.d.L.) which demonstrated captured Allied aircraft also had German insignia ,"T9" codes and prominent yellow markings so no question of any deception.
"OLGA" was one of the detachments operating away from the main KG.200 base.
As seen some KG.200 codes as applied are confusing . 42-5714 may have been for spares only and the squadron code LL--S as quoted sometimes must be wrong if she served with 322 and 323 BSs; the "DR" code was also carried by ex-French NAA.64s at the Goppingen Flying School A/B 116.
 
Nick
 

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