Hi all..
Friend of mine notified me of something of interest relating to our own group on Ebay; but as it turned out the item was mis identified and so I was about to log off when something drew my eye to another advert.
 
Puzzles me to see the following item being sold on Ebay (sorry I havent posted the link), but then again we have all just touched upon the D-Day anniversary and the obvious lack of media interest and more worrying the general populations disregard in a big way to this important date just past. A sign of perhaps an apathy by many in what happened just 60 years ago. (Wonder whether the same attitudes will prevail in 60 years from now towards our current armed forces personnel fighting in Afghanistan-Iraq). Anyway... to continue...
 
There is/was an orignal A2 jacket being offered for sale, by what is said allegedly to be the Grandson of a former veteran, said owner of same jacket. The tem itself is not unsual, i.e. carrying noseart on back or patches etc. It is a plain simple but clean and very genuine A2 as worn in WW2. I think it refers to the veteran by name as having been a US Army Glider Pilot? Certainly connected to TCG's.
 
What amazes me is the person selling it obviously knows and understands the personal significance of the item, the description explains the heroism, courage etc. A lengthy promo on why the jacket is what it is.
 
What I cant understand, and personally find both very sad and yes,offensive, is the willingness to put up for sale a piece like this, when clearly the family of the deceased veteran (said to have died in 2002), DO appreciate its connections. The advert is glamorised to its fullest extent to grab attention. My question: Why arent they taking those memories and keeping them for their own, it was their Grandfather-father after all? Is it me, am  looking at this from the wrong angle? Many families truly value this type of personal connection, the telling of a family story. A lot who we hear on our own AAF site do not have even one photograph to remember their loved ones. We all see countless requests each week, from a Son or Daughter, desperate to locate any information of a Father, Uncle or Grandfather. I feel sorry for those people, because they have nothing to save and remember and respect.
 
Or has somone in that family advertising the A2 recognised that 'this is worth bucks!' That might well be the simple and terrble truth; not interested in the family connection, just the cash it may generate.
 
Its beyond belief that any next of kin would be selling such items and throwing away with it perhaps the last physical connection they previously had with that member of their family.
 
Is this the sad indication that a number of younger generations arent really that bothered, interested, or actually appreciate what came before?
 
Seeing this going on makes me even more determined to carrying on upholding the history I try and do, a small corner of the 8th AF patchwork quilt, which spread across many 1,000's of acres of conflict in WW2. If I didnt, and equally those others both on here and further afield who do similar work did not, I fear the whole essence of 'who-how-why' would very quickly fade into nothing. Because from reading this one depressing advert, and I'm sure it is not an isolated case by any means, that history will very quickly be resigned in the trash can.
 
Some sections of our society certainly have a very odd, and dare I say selfish, perspective of treasuring family history.
 
Ian
 

Ian White - 305th BGMA Hon. Life Associate, UK Contact and Organiser of next years 40th Combat Wing UK Reunion - May 21st-31st 2009

Ian, What you are describing is a very common occurance. Some family members do not have much regard for family history or the sacrifices given in WW2 and recent wars.  You see the look and hardness on peoples faces today when you shop, just speek to someone and they won't even open their mouth, just give you a hard look. Many Grandchildren and daughters and sons of veterans are looking for information and some find what they are looking for but most do not. In a few more years the information will be totally lost as veterans die. You can never replace first hand knowledge.  Really sad.  Phillip

The original maker of A2 flight jackets still makes them.  You can buy one today, and it will be an 'original'.  If you buy this ebay item, you will get a leather A2 flight jacket from the original manufacturer in good, clean condition. 
The rest of the story is just that...a story.  Unless the seller can document the 'provenance' of the item, it is a fairy tale.
My sister buys stuff by the box at yard sales, etc. and sells it for whatever she can get for it.  She owns a brick-and-mortar store and 4 'stores' on ebay.  She never misrepresents what the item is, or its condition.  The rest of her ads including her profiles, are fairy tales of biblical proportion.  She would put Cecil B DeMille to shame.
Its great fun.
 
Caveat Emptor.
(And she doesnt have any flight jackets listed)

Ian and Phillip,  Sad but True!!!  We live in the "disposable generation," and I have seen the same on Ebay.   There are many FO WR memorabilia items offered, authentic and copies.  Recently I've seen various photos of the FO WR Plant offered at $5.00 a pop. Many of these are common photos available in the public forum, but someone trying to make a buck (personal opinion). I've also seen "personal items" which make me curious about the person who wore/used the item(s).  As a kid, I loved to go into the attic of our childhood home and go through the old selective newspapers and memorabilia.  I now have them and have used them for my children and the grandchildren when they come of age.  Yes, they are "just newspapers," but the memories..............  Best Regards!  Steven

Best Regards!
Steven P. Puhl
Willow Run Historian  (RET.)  
Home of 8685 Ford B-24 Liberators
Life Member: Yankee Air Museum

Hello Phil, Steve and Bill. Good t have your thoughts on what is certainly a very sad situation.
 
I wanted to clarify the jacket I saw, and I kick myself for not noting the link so I could post it on here. Anyway. There were photos of the jacket, which showed all the usual wear marks, minor damage you'd expect on a used authentic item. No, I dont beleive it was 'worn down' and faked to look so. It was also a small size, smething nt often sold by modern makers for clearly obvious reasons. Not usually the case on modern made Coopers, Eastman's et al (most of us are a lot bigger in the belly department or one thing, than those boys that flew in these jackets 60 years ago!!). I've seen several A2's over the years, in the flesh, (I have a genuine one here from a 422nd Sqn Navigator of our own group, which in all intents and purposes would not fit a boy older than 12 years of age!) and from my eye at least this one advertised was a genuine article. admittedly, No artwork, no patch, just a clean A2. Again I didnt make a note when reading the ad, but I think the maker's label inside collar was one of the more obscure names, rather than the regular main line makers? Anyway I cant put that name to paper so its academic now. No. For my thinking, this was a true WW2 piece of clothing, worn cuffs, a few small tears here and there in lining, rubbed and worn leather on collar and pockets from plenty of use.
 
I'd agree with you Bill, in that I dont recall any supporting material being sold with jacket, such as photos or documents. And so it may have been bologne on the history, but that would only mean perhaps the jacket although genuine, had been seperated from its previous owner and therefore its true history really was lost for ever.
 
The jacket on Ebay aside, I like many I guess (Steve commented too) have seen multiple items being sold cross Ebay and through other sources. The principle remains the same, the core, in that it is so disresptful to the memoryof those that these belonged to. Especially shameful when is their own family that allegedly, are selling off that piece of them. Its not too many steps short of selling your own Grandmother, just because the money looks too good to miss..........
 
Ian
 
 

Ian White - 305th BGMA Hon. Life Associate, UK Contact and Organiser of next years 40th Combat Wing UK Reunion - May 21st-31st 2009

Ian,
 
It made me sad to read your post, but I guess that is life.
In my case I have nothing tangible to touch. Howver. I did write up an account of my combat experience in booklet form and gave a copy to each ofmy nieces and nephews. I lost my wife and son many tears ago. Perhaps I might be remembered by my family for some years after I am gone.

Jules Horowitz, B-17 pilot, 99th BG, 50 missions/sorties
My tour was from 7/19/43-2/13/44

Last winter I was passing through a small town in Nevada. I bought some items from the local grocery store there. In the back there were several oil paintings high on the wall of "Flying Tiger" planes signed by many people (vetrans of the "Tigers"). I asked about the owner and was told he had died the summer before, in the conversation I was told that each of "his chidren" took a item or two as "rememberances" and the rest were either given away or thrown away. I was told that "It is too bad, we could have sold the stuff on ebay and made some money".
 
Mike

I'm afraid it's a sad commentary on today's society - or should I say the younger members.  Too many have no appreciation, or interest, in what the freedoms they enjoy today cost millions of people 60 -65 years ago. 
 
The only thing I kept from my 4 years in the Air Force in WW II, is my collection of 525 photographs.  It is a pictorial record of my 4 years, including mission photos from the Group's bombing missions - and some kamakazies hitting the water on a convoy in the Philipines.  When I go it goes to my oldest Gr'son, with explicit instructions that should he not want to keep it, it is to go to the Air Force Museum at Wright Patterson.  It is not to go to Ebay.

Hi all.. thanks Jules and Mike, your comments and observations appreciated.
 
Now, atempting to try and perhaps find again the advert I started this whole post off with, that A2 (Which I cant find at the moment), I was shocked to find the item below.... infact the seller has this and another 'unissued' MoH, for sale... a Navy one I think?
 
Now, I thought that these were a very select award, hardly ever given to servicemen, even today. So surprises me to see not one BUT two alegedly true unissued medals here in UK being auctioned off? The seller is careful to state that he can not sell these to persons in North America....
 
May be Ive just become overly sensitive in my old age, but this surely devalues the very meaning of such a high decoration? The true meaning of why it was created? Its not a box of soap powder, or breakfast cereal is it?
 
I'm really unsure what to think about this because....I happen to be talking to my counterpart UK contact over at the 306th BG Thurleigh. He told me of a donation he received, to be displaed within the 306th museum there, of a 'copy' US Air Force MoH, to be donated officially to the 306th BG association through the office of a former Governer - who's family was connected to the 306th Bomb Group, in respect of the medal won by Snuffy Smith of their group in WW2. Ralph Franklin is the contact at the 306th Museum here in Thurleigh UK, and went into the story with me of how the donation was arranged, but had to be done through 'official' channels, and an undertaking by him and the museum, that the museum would display it under theft proof conditions, i.e. under glass in a secure locked case. Whilst the 'copy' was not the same as an original (?), the US Government dept (?)side were very clear of its symbolic importance, and that conditons had to be followed for it to be sent over and displayed in UK. It took a lot of organising.
 
And now I see two up for sale on Ebay!!!!!! Allegedly  NOT copies but unissued originals.....??
 
Anyone have a comment?
 
Ian W
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/RARE-MEDAL-OF-HONOUR-U-S-AIR-FORCE-TYPE-IN-FRAME_W0QQitemZ250253360633QQihZ015QQcategoryZ4724QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Ian White - 305th BGMA Hon. Life Associate, UK Contact and Organiser of next years 40th Combat Wing UK Reunion - May 21st-31st 2009

Here is the US Navy issue MoH.. for sale ...!!! Pocket change at £700 .. $1400... makes courage , heroism, and sacrifice look awfully good value....I'm just truly numbed and what to think??
 
????
 
Ian W
 
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/RARE-MEDAL-OF-HONOUR-US-NAVY-MARINES-WITH-BOX_W0QQitemZ250253360588QQihZ015QQcategoryZ4724QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
 

Ian White - 305th BGMA Hon. Life Associate, UK Contact and Organiser of next years 40th Combat Wing UK Reunion - May 21st-31st 2009

Found this on the Congressional Medal of Honor Society site:
http://www.cmohs.org/index.html
9a Is it illegal to sell the Medal of Honor?
 It is illegal to sell, wear, or manufacture any decorations or medals authorized by Congress for the armed forces of the United States.

In General. - Whoever knowingly wears, manufactures, or sells any decoration or medal authorized by Congress for the armed forces of the United States, or any of the service medals or badges awarded to the members of such forces, or the ribbon, button, or rosette of any such badge, decoration or medal, or any colorable imitation thereof, except when authorized under regulations made pursuant to law, shall be fined under this title (18 United State Code) or imprisoned not more than six months or both.

Title 18 United States Code. Sec. 1001, entitled "Statements or entries
generally," June 25, 1948, ch. 45, 62 Stat. 749.

David Procaccini
Grandson of Sgt. Louis Procaccini
38th ADG Repair Squadron
North Africa-Italy-France
Achivist, Quonset Air Museum
Historian 38th Depot Repair Sqdn

Ian ~ 
 
From what I understand, selling a genuine Congressional Medal Of Honor is not only morally reprehensible, but illegal.
I'll bet there will be additional comments and follow up on this matter.  You're not the only one shocked by this act.
 

ORIGINAL: daveproc26

Found this on the Congressional Medal of Honor Society site:
http://www.cmohs.org/index.html
9a Is it illegal to sell the Medal of Honor?
It is illegal to sell, wear, or manufacture any decorations or medals authorized by Congress for the armed forces of the United States. . .

Title 18 United States Code. Sec. 1001, entitled "Statements or entries
generally," June 25, 1948, ch. 45, 62 Stat. 749.

If this is pointed out to Ebay officials they may cancel the auction before it is completed, but I doubt it. They may not know that law exists. Unfortunately the sale is in the UK and I assume that USA laws doesn't have any legal status on such matters there. If you check the auction again you may notice that the seller says, "PLEASE NOTE: I CANNOT SELL THIS ITEM TO NORTH AMERICA, THE CONTINENTAL UNITED STATES, ITS TERRITORIES, NOR TO U.S.CITIZENS." So I assume the seller is aware of that law.

Kim Lindaberry

Son of Harold "Whitey" Lindaberry, 96th Squadron, 2nd Bomb Group, 15th Air Force

Kim, I was so shocked to see a CMH on ebay that I neglected to read the small print. oops. :) Dave

David Procaccini
Grandson of Sgt. Louis Procaccini
38th ADG Repair Squadron
North Africa-Italy-France
Achivist, Quonset Air Museum
Historian 38th Depot Repair Sqdn

Back to the original discussion....relative to the uniform articles on auction sites.  It reminds of an issue that occurred in my own family just 3-4 years ago.  I'm my dad's only son, and there is one daughter. 
 
Dad had occasion to visit with his Dr and during that visit the Doc asked dad if he had served in WWII.  Yes dad replied, I was in the USAAF, why do you ask?  The Doc said he was curious and wanted to know if dad still had his uniform...yes he did.  Can I have it asked the Doc?  Sure, if you want it I guess, I don't have a need for it.  The very next day, the Doc showed up at dad's house and dad gave handed over the uniform.  Hat, slacks and blouse...with all the patches, ribbons, emblems and so forth.
 
Dad told me this some months later during a telcon I had with him.  I was so pissed I could hardly finish my conversation!  I didn't even know he had his uniform, he'd never mentioned it to me.  And this occurred during a period of time when I was asking him about his service trying to get details and specifics.  During that period he did mail me the class book from his Radio Operator/Radio Mechanic School.  Apparently it never occurred to dad to give me first right of refusal.  You'd think this would have been a natural option for him before agreeing to give his uniform away to someone he didn't know all that well, certainly not a family member.
 
Lesson learned...don't take anything for granted.  Inquire, ask questions, be specific or face the potential the items will be lost, sold, given away to Goodwill, sent to the dump or whatever.
 
Larry
 
The uniform is gone forever I guess.  I did ask dad if he could get the uniform back, but apparently he's made no effort to do that.  It saddens me that the uniform wasn't first offered to me so I could keep it and pass it down.

Son of Cpl Charles Caldwell, Engineer Crewman, USAAF Crash Boat P-258, Rey Island, Panama (Pacific side)

With all the feedback on this topic ... thought I would add a picture of a shadow box I completed with WWII memorabilia from a favorite Uncle.  As you can see it includes his Purple Heart, Combat Infantryman's badge, some photos, chevrons and a pistol taken from a German Officer that he gave me when he returned from overseas many years ago.  It will be given to one of my son's when time is appropriate.   We keep it hanging on the wall in the Rec room.

[image]local://8230/584DE7FA042F4D4A960CCBF84E87D811.jpg[/image]

Attached Image(s)

Jerry
S/Sgt. USAF Radio Operator '52-'56
C-119 "Flying Boxcar"

cousin of T/Sgt. Frank Hrehocik RO/Gunner
381st BG - 533rd BS

381st BGMA LTM

Volunteer - National Museum of the US Air Force

On 07/07/07, I posted a Thread on "the gear" sub-forum searching for info on items that my son-in-law had found in a "musty old box" which had belonged to his deceased grandfather.  We sorted through them, got most identified, made plans to get the uniform cleaned, and finally, and most importantly, found a place of honor for them.  This is the way it should be in a family where Vets are involved.  Here is the post.  No way will anything be on Ebay!  Best Regards!  Steven
 
"Gentlemen,    First off, my expertise lies, more or less, with the FO WR manufacturing of the B-24 Lib, so I spend most of my time in the "Heavy Bomber Forum" both here and on the B24 Best Web, but now I need some different help. I've come across a few apparel items with which I need assistance.  I do not have a picture so I will describe the items as best I can with a bit of background.
Background:  A musty old box of photos (unmarked), uniforms, caps army (AAF?) issued items, spent 50mm shells, lighters, etc. which belonged to my son-in-law's grandfather who served in Japan with the Occupation Forces in 1946 and/or 1947.  The pictures aren't much help as they are mostly personal, and there is very little info. that  my son-in-law has.  Here are the items I need some help with if at all possible (I've been searching and comparing, but no real luck yet.)
1. PATCH: diamond (trapazoidal) shape about 2"/side; blue background; gold wings with white star and red circle in center; gold stitched circle with 8 "blades" over top; worn on left sleeve; and five small white stars at the bottom.   2.  PIN: wings with two blade vertical prop through center (I've seen this on an avatar, I believe).   3.  two pieces of a silver clasp(?) both etched with "US" and bent over on one end. I do not even know if these are affiliated  with the AAF.  Also in the box was a Navy issue web belt, so maybe I was looking at a mix-match of items.  What was really interesting was a piece of silk approximately 18" square with the front page of the "Stars and Stripes" reproduced with the unconditional surrender ceremony of the Japanese aboard the battleship, Missouri, in Tokyo Bay.   Any help out there would be appreciated! TX! "  
 
 

Best Regards!
Steven P. Puhl
Willow Run Historian  (RET.)  
Home of 8685 Ford B-24 Liberators
Life Member: Yankee Air Museum

Sad as it is to see a veteran's personal effects auctioned off on eBay by family members, at least they will go to some collector or history buff who places a higher value on such things. Tragically, they are more often simply set out on the curb in a box on the first garbage day after the funeral. Occasionally we get such boxes donated to the museum where they are cataloged and preserved.
 
Once when I was browsing in a used book store locally I came across an 8th AF book with the name of a good friend inside the cover. We had just buried him the weekend before. I already had a copy of that book at home, but bought it anyway. Veterans are encouraged make arrangements for such memorabilia to go to a caring family member or a reputable museum well before they join the "The High Squadron".

Well my father had his A-2 jacket stolen in 1944 from what I was told but my mother still has his uniform.
Dad apparently had a replica of his jacket made but it too was stolen at one of his places of employment before I was born.
I think someday that our family will donate dad's uniform and officers cap to a museum and preferably a U.S.A.F. museum.
We might want to keep fathers D.F.C. medal in the family though.