Have had a chance recently to read some DOR's and USAAF-jargon heavy materials, and have a few terminology questions:

Sortie vs. Mission -- a bit confused on this. What is the difference between the two, and which did you need 100 of to go home?

F/O (flight officer) -- seems to be a precursor to 2nd Lt, but some guys came to the squadron as 2nd Lt and some as F/O. Was it a matter of flying hours?

Top Kick -- I know it was an armorer/ordinance type job, and seems to carry a little prestige, but I don't really know what the job entailed.

Rover Pete/Rover Joe/Horsefly -- I know they were forward air controllers, but did they operate on the ground, in light service aircraft, or both? Names derive from location?

Armed Recce -- sounds like load up with ammo (sans bombs), check out an area and search for targets of opportunity?

Box Formation -- as opposed to echelon, seems this was used en route to a target, and changed to echelon for dive bombing? Just 2 ships abreast with two behind, simple as it sounds? (echelon, I'm assuming is the classic stepped up/slightly behind 4 ship formation you always seem to see?)

Thanks in advance, I'm sure there'll be more...

Grandson of 1st Lt. Bernell A. "Barney" Forster (1921-2007)
347th Fighter Squadron/350th Fighter Group

F/O...I have heard that when a class graduated, that half the class was given the rank of 2nd Lt and the other half was given the rank of F/O.

Also,  short persons were selected as fighter pilots and the tall ones went to bombers.

Jim :-)

James S. Peters Sr. T/Sgt
B-17 Flt Engr, 27 missions
99 BG, 348BS, 5th Wing, 15th AAF
Tortorella, (Foggia#2), Italy
My Tour was from 12/03/44-06/19/45
M/Sgt USAF (Retired)

F/O was a flight officer, i.e., warrant officer.  Often based on class ranking and/or any college experience or lack thereof. 
 
Top Kick = 1st Sergeant.  Senior NCO responsible for bring the enlisted men's matters to the commander.  Also served as the commander's advisor in dealing with those issues.
 
Tall = bomber/transport
short = fighter was generally true.  One's dad, although graduating after the war, was assigned to heavies despite being no. 2 in his class because at 6'3" he wouldn't fit in a single seater.
 
 

Jim,
My bombardier class of 227 graduated 137  2nd Lt's. and 90 Flight Officers.  There may have been a quota but I think the cadet's over all ranking in the class was a contributing factor in the rank received.

Bill Runnels
Bombardier(B-17)
HELL'S ANGELS
303RDBG, 360THBS
www.geocities.com/billrunnels

From my handy-dandy  TM-20-205 Dictionary of United States Army Terms, 18 January 1944 :

Flight Officer -  Member of the Army Air Forces qualified for duty as a member of an aircrew, and holding the rank of Warrant Officer, junior grade.

In other words, not a commissioned officer.  I dont know if FO's were given that rank due to class ranking, as stated as a possibility above or if other things entered into it, but it would be interesting to know what made some an " Officer and Gentleman " and some a Warrant.  


The Rover system significantly improved Close Air Support effectiveness and army-air force cooperation. Named Rover David and Rover Paddy (after 2 fighter pilots and originators of the idea) for the RAF and Rover Joe (as in G.I. Joe) for the USAAF, it was the pioneer of today’s FACs (Forward Air Controllers). The Rover system paired air controllers and army liaison officers to ‘rove’ the battlefield calling fighter-bombers to attack targets of opportunity. To respond to these CAS requests, fighters were ‘Cabranked,’ whereby flights of aircraft arrived at 30-minute intervals. Prior to take-off, the fighter-bomber pilots planned for alternate targets they would attack if they received no call after 20 minutes on-station. If, however, the Rover had a suitable target, he would talk the flight onto the target through grid coordinates, terrain description, and artillery-fired colored smoke. The only noticeable change in today’s CAS missions in Afghanistan is the use of technology (specifically, Global Positioning Satellite (GPS) and laser-designation) to mark targets.
 
Another innovation in Italy that improved Allied CAS effectiveness was ‘Horsefly,’ a precursor of today’s Airborne FACs. An artillery spotter pilot flying a Piper L-5 ‘Grasshopper’ suggested the concept for ‘Horsefly’ when he realized an L-5 could also "direct fighter-bombers onto a target when artillery was unavailable to mark the target with smoke shells." Accordingly, fighter-bomber pilots on assignment with the Corps flew modified L-5s as Airborne FACs. Each L-5 also carried "an infantry observer to help distinguish friendly from enemy forces, and if operating with armored forces, would carry an observer expert in identifying friendly and enemy armor." Ranging as far as 15-20 miles behind enemy lines, ‘Horsefly’ FACs marked their targets by dropping small smoke bombs.


Also, just read somewhere a couple weeks ago, the Rover officers were at 1st sent out in jeeps and scout cars, but later on were put in tanks for protection.  They were pretty darn close to the action.

SHAEF1944 American Veterans Museum

I know for sure there was a ranking system in play at the Midland, Texas Bombardier School.  With-in one hour after graduating, I was interviewed and asked to remain as an instructor.  During that interview I was informed I  ranked in the top 10 of the class.  Since it was not an order, but an invitation, I declined and moved on.  There very well may have been a quota (2nd LT/FO) established for the class prior to graduation.  Most Flight Officers were promoted to LT. grade in a short time.
 
 

Bill Runnels
Bombardier(B-17)
HELL'S ANGELS
303RDBG, 360THBS
www.geocities.com/billrunnels

ORIGINAL: SHAEF1944
Also, just read somewhere a couple weeks ago, the Rover officers were at 1st sent out in jeeps and scout cars, but later on were put in tanks for protection.  They were pretty darn close to the action.

This explains something I just read in the 347th FS history book: pilot Alvin Ballard accidentally "liberated" a town in Italy while detailed to the 5th Army in a "rover joe" capacity.

Grandson of 1st Lt. Bernell A. "Barney" Forster (1921-2007)
347th Fighter Squadron/350th Fighter Group

SHAEF,
On 8 July 1942 the grade of Flight Officer was established. In 1941 congress had funded Public Law 999, which provided some conditional training possibilities and gave enlisted flying students the title of Aviation Students. Graduates of the programe were awarded the rating of pilot and warranted as a staff sergeant. In the earliest months of the Second World War, sergeant pilots flew fighter,bomber and transport aircraft,but the prospect of enlisted men flying aircraft was viewed with some scepticisim by the War Department, and this led to the Flight Officer Act, Public Law 658. As a result, those sergeant pilots produced by the Staff Sergeant Programe were promoted as top-flight Officers. Upon graduation, aviation ( flying training) cadets who had not qualified for commisions as 2nd Lieutenant could be appointed Flight Officers, with a status equivalent to that of Warrant Officer, junior grade. Promotion from Flight Officer to Lieutenant was permitted. 

Fair Winds, John 

Fair Winds and following seas.
John, (GM 3/C USS Frost DE 144)

Kin to LT. John W. Farnkopf
15th AAF, 52 FG, 4th FS; Madna, Italy
MIA 11/11/44 remains found 12/8/53

Sortie vs. Mission- a sortie was a single aircraft.So let say aflight of 4 P-47 was sent out on a "mission"  ,there were 4 sortie's flown that mission.
A USAAF pilot would say he had 100 missions more so than 100 sorties even tough both are correct if you think about it.
I might be wrong but sorties were more a British thing if I remember correctly?
Armed Recce - is what you stated pretty much.
Box formation I thought was a bomber formation,not sure.
Dive bombing was also done in trail formation ,one behind another.Some pilots were lost in explotion from bombs that someone in front of them dropped.
Finger four was the main US fighter formation late in the war.Put your hand flat on the table and that is how it looked looking straight down. Index finger was wingman ,leader ,ring finger was element leader and pinkie was element's wingman.
Hope this helps.
Rick
 

ORIGINAL: rickpeck2

Sortie vs. Mission- a sortie was a single aircraft.So let say aflight of 4 P-47 was sent out on a "mission"  ,there were 4 sortie's flown that mission.
A USAAF pilot would say he had 100 missions more so than 100 sorties even tough both are correct if you think about it.

 
That's how I understood it as well, Rick.  However, in looking at Grandpa's logbook, he lists all his missions, but he added another column for sorties (and as he got closer to his requirement he started tracking his percent toward completion).  Looking closer, not every mission counted as a sortie -- it seems like a mission wasn't a sortie unless you over enemy territory or engaged in combat.  A few missions counted as 2 sorties.  At the end of his tour, he doesn't list sorties or missions, but "109 crew credits".  Anyone who can shed light on this I'd sure appreciate it.



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Grandson of 1st Lt. Bernell A. "Barney" Forster (1921-2007)
347th Fighter Squadron/350th Fighter Group

Everytime he took off to go anywhere was considered a sortie. The 109 crew credits may have been the entire sqd he was attached to. I could find no shoot down credits for your grand-father. 
 
 
 
Terry T.

I see what your talking about. Sortie is like you said over enemey territory.
The log entre on 9-18-44 might be for two missions.It is a guess because it has two areas and it has twice the time as most of the other missions/sortie.
This is interesting .
Rick

My father attended preflight at San Antonio (S.A.A.C.C.), class 43-F.  I have one of his base newspapers, in which there is an article listing 12 criteria which determined whether you eventually graduated as a 2nd LT. or F/O.  I can either try to scan the article to a PDF, or summarize the 12 and reply later.  Tomorrow at the earliest.

Don Hoch, son of 1st Lt. Sterling P. Hoch (397BG/596BS)

Sortie- one aircraft takeoff and landing to conduct a mission.
 
 
Terry T.
 
 

Apparently, the "Mission vs. Sortie debate has reared its ugly head on AAF.com in the past. 
 
Here is what user RossT had to say: MISSION vs. SORTIE
 
Here is another thread, in which someone named Phil apparently delivered a cogent, definitive treatise on the subject.  One message, however, was deleted in the thread: You guessed it: Phil's.  MISSION vs. SORTIE THREAD
 
Here's another take: MISSION DEFINITION
 
Or maybe it was based on combat hours:  COMBAT HOURS
 
Here's on more saying fighter tours were based on hours: COMBAT HOURS II
 
Meanwhile, the 347th book, based on documents of the era, stipulates in more than one place that 100 missions were required to rotate home...

Grandson of 1st Lt. Bernell A. "Barney" Forster (1921-2007)
347th Fighter Squadron/350th Fighter Group

There is no versus
 
Lets see there one and the same..in order to have a sortie you need to go on some type of mission, in order to go on the mission you first must take-off, & hopefully when your finshed you land..
 
hence
Sortie- one aircraft takeoff and landing to conduct a mission
 
 
 
 
Terry T.

Terry, I concur with your definition.  The following tends to support that conclusion.
 
The 303rdBG(Hell's Angels), 8th Air Force, completed 364 missions during the war and were credited with 11,127 A/C sorties off the ground.

Bill Runnels
Bombardier(B-17)
HELL'S ANGELS
303RDBG, 360THBS
www.geocities.com/billrunnels

Bill,
I believe Terry's reply concurs with Phil M's from years back when he was an active member of this forum. Phil was a stickler for detail. Never glossed over threads and always cut to the chase.

Fair Winds and following seas.
John, (GM 3/C USS Frost DE 144)

Kin to LT. John W. Farnkopf
15th AAF, 52 FG, 4th FS; Madna, Italy
MIA 11/11/44 remains found 12/8/53

Flight Officer vs. 2nd Lt. -- from "The Tale Spinner", Vol I, No.20, dated Saturday, Dec. 5, 1942
 
article titled "'Rating Scale' Will Select Cadets for Flight Officers, Second Lieutenants"
 
.....  "There are 12 elements of character and ability which the rating scale considers, for each cadet.  Here they are:"
 
(paraphrased)
 
1. His grades
2. His sense of responsibility ...
3. His conformity to rules and regulations
4. Military bearing ....
5. His initiative ...
6. Self confidence
7. Strength of character ....
8. Comprehension and clear thinking ...
9. Co-operativeness with his military supervisors ...
10. His qualities of leadership ...
11. Attention to duty
12. Professional proficiency (how good a soldier and flyer he has become)
 
"A rating scale for every cadet, judging him in the light of these 12 points, will be filled out at four places -- Preflight, Primary, Basic and Advanced."
 
 

Don Hoch, son of 1st Lt. Sterling P. Hoch (397BG/596BS)

Thanks to all who helped me out on this thread, I appreciate it. This place is great.

ORIGINAL: rickpeck2
Finger four was the main US fighter formation late in the war. Put your hand flat on the table and that is how it looked looking straight down. Index finger was wingman ,leader ,ring finger was element leader and pinkie was element's wingman.

Rick --
I knew about the finger four, but a 347th pilot drew this same formation out and called it a "Vickers V". New one on me. Haven't run across either on a DOR yet.

Grandson of 1st Lt. Bernell A. "Barney" Forster (1921-2007)
347th Fighter Squadron/350th Fighter Group