B-24 versus B-17

my learned friend it shall go hard but i will find them ///   operators Hugh J. McGee
Jr./////////                     15. USAAF , 5. BW. , 301. BG , 353. C BS
Boeing B BO Flying Fortress II. S N : 42-30106. THE machine short storiette
: Cheyenne USA : 1943 April 10. Smoky Hill USA : 1943 April 22. Morrison USA
: 1943 may 05. St. Donald USA : grant 301. BG. , 353. BS): 1943 June 04.
Oudna , Tunisia : 1943 August 06. Cerignola , Italy : 1943 December 07.
Lucerne , Italy : 1944 February 01. and finally shoot down flak ): Kitten
Börzsönyliget (??? ), Hungary : 1944 June 27. His nickname WILLY ",
operators Hugh J. McGee Jr. hdgy. O -812622) it had been , the total fős
crew imprisonment rained. (MACR: 6175) ///////have recourse to
sg__Regards!_Tibor Szokolai//))szoki.bt@invitel.hu

they are respected colleagues! I much do not speak English. I was searching and found Willy (42-30106) components. He is much work. If he is veteran staff for an edge I would like to ask it what happened? Is for me an foto from a wreck. I do not find an other original photo Willy.
I would like to keep it contact.
"DUNA" Hungary

John,

Re : Flying time to Italy:

We were flying a new B24 over

Grenier Field to Gander Lake:  5 hrs 10 min.
Gander Lake to Lagens Field, Azores:  7 hrs 15 min.
Lagen Field to Marrakech, Africa:  6 hrs 45 min.
Marrakech to Tunis, Africa:  6 hrs 25 min.
Tunis to Gioia del Sol:  3 hrs 40 min.
At Gioia we were relieved of the Aircraft, Assigned to the 464 at Pantanella and they picked us up and the trip to Pantanella:  30 min.

This is what I have in my log book.  Hope this gives you some idea of the flight time for the segments mentioned.

Regards,
Bob Hoskinson
464th BG. 778th BS

Thanks Bob!
 
Assuming the two types of ships cruise a approximately the same air speed, yes, that does help out tremendously!
 

John

_________________________________________

Son of Herman E. "Ed" Croft,
T/Sgt. Flt. Engineer of Nick Kantar crew # 90
342nd Sqdn., 97th BG (H)
Amendola Airfield Foggia, Italy
9 Oct. ’44 - May 25, ‘45

Bill:

I am astounded by this picture (post #134).  This is the first black B-24 with the "Snooper" Logo on the tail I have ever seen.  What a treat.  My records show this plane was flown by Lt. McClintic on 13-14 Aug '45 out of Okinawa and was the last combat mission of the War for the 868th.  Thanks you.

 

Romeo,   Bill's picture was great, and thanks for the post.  As you can see, the A/C was a FO WR Lib, so that put it near to my heart.  What I thought was really interesting was "Taildragger's" post #140.  I guess what really got me started was Bill's photographs in his book!    Steven

Best Regards!
Steven P. Puhl
Willow Run Historian
Moderator: armyairforces.com
Yankee Air Museum (YAM)

ORIGINAL: jpeters140

Jules....This is an excerpt from my AN-01-20EG-2 Erection And Mantenance Instructions for Army Model B-17G
British Model Fortress II.

(The main difference between an F and G was the addition of the Chin Turret, and Electronic Turbo Control System). (My Comment).

The Fuel Tank Capacities were the same.  (My comment).

Fuel 
Main Tanks                                           1700 US GAls     1416 B.I.G.   (B.I.G.  British Imperial Gallons).
Outer wing  tanks (Tokyo Tanks          1080 US GAls       900 B.I.G.
Bomb bay tanks                                     820 US Gals       682 B.I.G.

OIL
Oil  tanks (four)                                     36.9 US Gals   30.7 B.I.G.
                                                         Expansion space of 10 percent

Jim :-)

 
Jim.
 I stand corrected (allow for my memory of 63 years)I guess that the Tokyo planes carried 2780 gal of fuel. 6.9 gal of oil is close enough to what I remember was 40 gal in each engine.
Hope to see you next week in Savannah.

Jules Horowitz, B-17 pilot, 99th BG, 50 missions/sorties
My tour was from 7/19/43-2/13/44

I mentioned this in an earlier posting..this magazine should still be available in the stores untill Nov 07..
AIR CLASSICS  Volume 43 Number 10..
 
There are pictures of B-25s on the cover..and mentions "REBEL GAL" saga of a B-24 crew at war.,.its a dairy of bombardier 2nd.Lt. Weldell Robert Buck, from Jan 1944 - 17 Sep 1945.
 
 "Rebal Gal" B-24H-20-FL 42-94838 489BG/845BS 8AF flew 85 bombing missions before being scrapped at Altus, Okla. after the war.
 
Great reading day by day dairy.
 
 
Steven:
 
This indeed is a great forum for peoples answers, except when it comes to anything related to a B-24.
 
Asking questions here about B-24s, is like starting a fight with one hand tied behind your back.. B-17 reigns here..go to a more supportive group..
 
 If you going to ask questions about B-24s or PB4Ys.
 
Try B-24best.com or there forum http://b24bw.proboards33.com/ .
 
 
Terry T.

Gentlemen,    After having read magazines and books, researched sparingly on line, compared the data and watched documentaries, I still have a burning question that I would like to put out there to those who actually flew in either A/C or in both.  I already know that everyone one has an opinion as they read the facts, but to hear insights from those veterans who were there would be most interesting.  So, how do they stack up "nose to nose" in your view?  What makes it personally intriguing to me is to have had the honor to work in the Willow Run Plant surrounded by the history and memories of the B-24 and  then to be a "Lifer" in the Yankee Air Force which has one of the most meticulously restored B-17G's, the Yankee Lady.  Tough choice I know!  I also know that that the BEST A/C is the one that "carries out its mission by most efficiently delivering its payload on target and safely brings its crew home."  I'll be waiting to hear!  "They are not forgotten!"   Steven

Terry,   This was my opening post of this "thread."  My first response was from Jim (post#2) in which he more or less said in a subsequent PM that it was like "starting the war all over again."   As to the comment:  "go to a more supportive group," I  wouldn't back away from acquiring as much information as I can from Vets, other Historians, Homefront Workers, family and friends so what BETTER site than the USAAF.com tocover all aspects!  Also as to that "more supportive group," on the B24-PB4Y Research Team Elite, I am "WillowRun," but have not posted in quite some time.  I regularly go to the B-24 Best Web for "nose art" info and tying info to the FO WR Libs. specifically. Working within the walls of present day GM WR keeps one in touch with the historical past.  Also, as has been said by many posters to this particular "thread,"  the best of the two was the "A/C that brought you home."  Steven

Best Regards!
Steven P. Puhl
Willow Run Historian
Moderator: armyairforces.com
Yankee Air Museum (YAM)

Stevan,
 There is no question in my mind that the B24 was a great plane, but after my combat experience, I must say that my choice would be the B17. For 3 reasons
#1  The B17 could absorb more plane damage then the B24
#2  At altitude 24s couldn't keep as tight a formtion as 17s
#3  I was on a few missions with B24s, when attacked by fighters they only went after the B24s
from my diary----- 11/2/1943. target Weiner Neustadt. I was leading the 3rd element in my group, 54  B24s directly behind us. 80 top notch (Goerings best) fighters attacked the B24s, 2 of my gunners each claimed an enemy fighter as they were breaking away from their attack, they never even shot at my plane.
My crew said it was the worst flak they ever saw, 8 B24s and 4 B17s  were lost

Jules Horowitz, B-17 pilot, 99th BG, 50 missions/sorties
My tour was from 7/19/43-2/13/44

Jules,       OKAY, if I had to take a "sanity check," i.e. among my peers, friends and associates who had parents or grandparents in the AAF of WWII, and who were in the left OR right seat of Libs or Forts, here would be the score: Libs: 2 - Forts: 5.  Among those with whom I work, 3 had relatives who were Fort Pilots; 1 had one who flew both besides P-61 "Black Widows," but favored the Fort;  2 who flew Libs; and 1 who favored Forts, but who had not flown in combat.   How true these stats were, I cannot be sure.  Needless to say, this statistically follows what has appeared on this thread.  HOWEVER, being a FO WR person, my heart sunk a tad, but, knowing that we at the Yankee Air Museum had the "Yankee Lady" made me proud!  Whatever brough you home, Gentlemen!    Steven

Best Regards!
Steven P. Puhl
Willow Run Historian
Moderator: armyairforces.com
Yankee Air Museum (YAM)

"It would be an exaggeration to say that the B-24 won the war for the Allies. But don't ask how they could have won the war without it." quoted from prologue of THe Wild Blue , by Stephen Ambrose,  Simon & Schuster, 2001

"Much of the existing motor vehicle capacity was used for trucks, tanks and cars during the war. The contribution of the motor industry was in running and building new plants side by side with their own, or as in the case of the giant Ford plant at Willow Run, building a new plant completely from scratch at a new site.  The contribution in terms of management and machinery--some 66 per cent of automobile industry tools in 1942 going into the new aircraft and engine factories-- made possible the rapid increase in aircraft output. The motor industry produced over 50 per cent of all aero-engines, and 66 per cent of all combat engines as well as 40 per cent of all air frame production by weight. At its peak the Ford plant for B-24 bombers produced in weight the equivalent of 50 per cent of the peak of German aircraft production on its own.  Without the conversion of the motor industry the aircraft producers themselves would have been unable to cope with the scale of contracts available from 1941 onwards, even though they, too, were rapidly expanded in size throughout the period."
quoted from The Air War, 1939-1945, R.J. Overy, p. 164, Stein & Day, 1980.

Lest we forget the contributions on the home front from the automotive sector. I remembered being impressed by that number when I first read it: Willow Running alone putting out 50% (by weight) of peak total German aircraft production.

My long ago memories say, 2812 gal. fuel with all the tanks at the war's end, when I was flying, Jan thru war's end, 1945
B-24s MY FAVORITE! [I guess because I survived!]
RHD

Hugh,   Great quote!  Thanks!  If you haven't taken a look at the thread: History: Willow Run Liberators, surf through it.  There are many good posts there.  I am sure that both at Boeing facilities as well as at Consolidated, there were ancillary activities going on that would compliment the building of A/C's as well as other wartime products.  At FO WR, a section of the plant (sort of "cloak and dagger" at the time) was involved in early jet/rocket technology.  (Cf:  Ford Willow Run: The Jet Age thread.)   Also, as an aside,  at the end of the war when FO WR was sold to the Kaiser-Fraser Corporation and returned to the production of automobiles (the Kaiser, the Fraser and the Henry-J).  Simultaneous to this with the pending outbreak of the Korean Conflict, they built the C-123 and the Fairchild C-119 Flying Boxcar.  A good  book on the FO WR facility about its construction,  the airport, out-buildings, roadways, manufacturing setup etc. is: WILLOW RUN: Colossus Of American Industry by Warren B. Kidder (1995).  Although out-of-print, I have seen it available on Amazon.com and on a few other sites.   I love that Stephen Ambrose quote!  Best Regards!  Steven 

Best Regards!
Steven P. Puhl
Willow Run Historian
Moderator: armyairforces.com
Yankee Air Museum (YAM)

Robert,   As usual, thanks for the post!  Thought I'd attach this "early photo" of a FO WR B-24E sitting on the tarmac outside the recently completed airport hangar.  I'm using this today in another thread.  Best Regards!  Steven

[image]local://upfiles/11777/831DA76A8002453397FAEB6BF065B07C.jpg[/image]

Attached Image(s)

Best Regards!
Steven P. Puhl
Willow Run Historian
Moderator: armyairforces.com
Yankee Air Museum (YAM)

Thought I'd also add this photo from one of my other threads with the caveat: "State-of-the-Art Boeing vs. Final FO WR Variant B24M."
 
< Prior to the "final buildout" of the B-24M's at FO WR in June of 1945 (final A/C #8685: 28JN45), a "visitor" at the plant brought us the final realization that what we had seen, heard about and read about  WAS a reality.  The "B-29 Superfortress," which had already been highly successful in the Pacific Theatre, was now the obvious replacement A/C for long distance missions.  This is also one of my favorite photos!  I suppose I could retitle it: "Boeing vs Consolidated" or "B-29 vs B-24."  At any rate, enjoy!   Best Regards! >   Steven 


Thumbnail Image


Attachment (1)

Best Regards!
Steven P. Puhl
Willow Run Historian
Moderator: armyairforces.com
Yankee Air Museum (YAM)

For those of you who might still look at this thread, I've attached a copy of another post from the thread: B-24 Liberator: Ditching at Sea, where I referenced a generic "instructional" guide.  Little attention was given to the Lib while the Fort was more than amply addressed.  In this case, the verdict goes to the Fort.  Steven
 
 
Rummaging through some of my books, I came across: The Pilot's Information File 1944, a Schiffer Military History Book, 1995, in which there was a section on "ditching, PIF 8-3-1 > 8-3-6, REVISED: 01DE43. There was a lot of "generic" information and sketches, along with a detailed description and sketches for the ditching of a B-17.  For the B-24, there was only a sketch of the crew's "ditching positions" and a brief paragraph that stated:
     "Ditching belt in the aft compartment is attached to gun mounts.  Men brace against it as shown.  Flight engineer, on cockpit step, also should use a ditching belt. Otherwise he should lie on floor, feet against step, knees bent slightly. Fasten down all loose eqipment.  Hold position until plane stops.  If help is near,crew should use one-man raft parachute and bail out."
This all seems a "little fuzzy" to me and even the sequencing seems miss-aligned.  However, I understand that this was generic and not necessarily the actual directives.   Just thought I'd share this.   Steven

 
 

Best Regards!
Steven P. Puhl
Willow Run Historian
Moderator: armyairforces.com
Yankee Air Museum (YAM)

On Halloween Night, I took my wife to a downtown Ann Arbor restaurant to celebrate her birthday, and while standing in queue for seating, an elderly gentleman made a comment about the A-2 jacket I was wearing.  The slightly distressed, brown A-2 had the B-17G "Yankee Lady" Nose Art of the YAM on the back.  His comment was "Now there's the plane that won the war!" Needless to say, I thanked him for his unsolicited comment and then proceeded to tell him about the history of FO WR and the B-24 Liberator.  Again he commented that he had grown up in the area and knew about Willow Run, but the B-17 still was the better A/C. My only comment to him was only that which I so often hear and repeat: "The best A/C was that one that brought you safely home!"  The "war" still goes on!  During the meal, I raised a glass of wine in honor of our Vets, past and present!  Best Regards!   Steven

[image]local://upfiles/11777/BDD4DEF219994D13AFFB1E7CC667E057.jpg[/image]

Attached Image(s)

Best Regards!
Steven P. Puhl
Willow Run Historian
Moderator: armyairforces.com
Yankee Air Museum (YAM)

Stevan,
 I fully agree with you, both the B24 and the B17 won the war in Europe. Also, we must remember that the B24 played a signifcant role in the Pacific theater because of its long range, well before the B29 got into the fray.

Jules Horowitz, B-17 pilot, 99th BG, 50 missions/sorties
My tour was from 7/19/43-2/13/44