B-24 versus B-17

Jim and Bill,
 
     My Dad's times on the crossing were:
1)Hunter Field to Bangor                    7:40
2)Bangor to Goose Bay                      4:35
3)Goose Bay to Iceland                     10:55
4)Iceland to Valley  Wales                  5:50
5)Valley Wales to Marrakesh             11:45

Steve....Here are my crew's times. This was in November,1944.

Grenier Fld N.H. to Goose Bay, LBDR            5 hrs 50 min
Goose Bay, LBDR  to Meeks Fld Iceland        8 hrs 38 min.
Iceland to Valley,Wales                                5 hrs 42 min.
Valley, Wales to Marrakech                         10 hrs 10 min.

We had clear weather all the way to Valley Wales...and clouds from Valley to Marrakech...in fact we had a clearing and discovered we were over land..*Must have been Spain)..the nav gave us a heading back to sea...this took about 15 minutes until we saw water.

Jim :-)

I may be wrong but I think that with tokyo tanks we had 2200+/- gal of fuel? We flew a mission to Weiner Neustadt on 11/2/43 from Tunis 1006/907 miles. We were airborne 13+ hours, we landed in Gela Sicily to refuel, spent the night and returned to base next day.

Jules....This is an excerpt from my AN-01-20EG-2 Erection And Mantenance Instructions for Army Model B-17G
British Model Fortress II.

(The main difference between an F and G was the addition of the Chin Turret, and Electronic Turbo Control System). (My Comment).

The Fuel Tank Capacities were the same.  (My comment).

Fuel 
Main Tanks                                           1700 US GAls     1416 B.I.G.   (B.I.G.  British Imperial Gallons).
Outer wing  tanks (Tokyo Tanks          1080 US GAls       900 B.I.G.
Bomb bay tanks                                     820 US Gals       682 B.I.G.

OIL
Oil  tanks (four)                                     36.9 US Gals   30.7 B.I.G.
                                                          Expansion space of 10 percent

Jim :-)

Good evening,   I came across a photo this evening of a B-24M-31-FO,44-51506, painted entirely black (link to the book info attached below).  It stood out in a field of "surplus"  "clean-skin" Libs at Kingman, AZ.  Was the main purpose of these "night missions/recon?  Was this common to specific BG's or Theatres of Operation or was this particular A/C an anamoly?  Were there B-17's painted the same way for the same purpose?  I've not researched this and am probably looking for a "quick" answer from the Vets and experts.  I've found nothing in my FO WR info on black paint used as a production mode.  This had to have been done at a MOD center.  Best regards!    Steven 
 
  http://forum.armyairforces.com/m_131381/tm.htm
 
 
 
 

Steven:

The black Libs were used for night missions. RCM (Radar Counter Measures), leaflet drops, Carpetbagger (Resistance supplies and agent drops) among others.

From: "The B24 Liberator 1939-1945" by Martin Bowman

The major USAAF effort to supply the Resistance movements in Europe began under the code name 'Carpetbagger'... Liberator was selected for these operations because of its long range and capacious fuselage. Ball turrets were removed and replaced with cargo hatches, nicknamed 'Joe Holes' through which the secret agents, or 'Joes' dropped. ... The outer skins of the Liberators were painted in a special non-glare black paint. [I believe they were actually painted GLOSS BLACK it worked better in spotlights.]

Operations were mounted from Tempsford under RAF guidance from Jan 1944, while adminstered by the 482nd BG (Pathfinder) at Alconbury, Cambridgeshire, until 27 Feb 1944> That month several of the Carpetbagger Liberators were moved to Watton. On 28 March 1944 the Carpetbaggers were established as the 801st Provisional Bombardment Group. On 13 August 1944 it was redesignated the 492nd BG (H) from the recently disbanded Group of that number.

The RAF also flew black RCM Liberators in the 223 Squadron.

From: "Consolidated B-24 Liberator" by Edward Shacklady

Photo Caption: B-24J-1 in all Glossy Black scheme for night bombing. Note the modified nose section.


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From: "The B24 Liberator 1939-1945" by Martin Bowman

Photo Caption: An extremely rare view of a 'Carpetbagger' Liberator taking off from Prestwick.

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"Squadron of Deception" by Stephen Hutton

36th Bomb Squadron RCM (Radar Countermeasures)

"Among other things, the squadron flew night radar jamming protection missions under the direction of RAF 100 Group in support of the RAF bombing missions. First with MANDREL jammers, later JACKAL & JOSTLE units."

Photo Caption: B24 S/N 42-51311, R4-T nicknamed Tar Baby

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From: "Squadron of Deception" by Stephen Hutton

36th Bomb Squadron RCM (Radar Countermeasures)

Photo Caption: Black Liberator S/N 42-51315, R4-U and her black sister ship Tar Baby... had JOSTLE equipment installed. Tests indicated that JOSTLE was superior to JACKAL for Jamming.

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Steven     the Eighth had at least 1 black B-17, in gloss black ( found better for concealment than matt black) from the 351BG for assembly-target towing . Had a big " J " in white triangle covering the vertical tail.   Nick

Ken  the picture of the B-24 taking off (42-51211) is on the 801-492BG memorial at Harrington; there is a row of cottages in the background and a tree.          Nick

Can anyone tell me the approximate times for these segments in my father's route?
 

Left States Sep. 23, 1944 Grenier Field, Manchester, NH
Left Gander Lake Field, Newfoundland Sep. 25, 1944
Left Azores Islands (British position) 26, Sep. ‘44
Left Marrakesh Africa 27, Sep. ‘44
Left Tunis, Africa 3 Oct. ‘44
Left Gioia, Italy 8 Oct. ‘44
Landed 342nd Sqd. 9 Oct. ’44 [Amendola Field, Foggia, Italy] 
Thanks!

Steven: For the benfit of the others who may not have the book here is the photo of that black B-24M at Kingman. There was another one that shows in one of the aerial photos and I'll try to get a scan of it and post it.



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This is the photo of the other black B-24 enlarged from about a 1/8th inch portion of the negative. Photo taken at Kingman, Arizona, Feb 8, 1947.



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Here is a photo of a black B-17, again an enlargement of a very small part of a negative even at 1200dpi. I assume that the large triangle insignia was added later as it certainly doesn't fit the dark image! Kingman, Arizona, 2-8-47.



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Bill Larkins, Ken Alexander and Nick King,  Thank you so much for the assistance!  Most specifically...  Ken, for your leads into the book world to which I had not gone, BUT I do have all the books you referenced.  Nick, for your expertise and filling me in on the "matte black" 17's.  Bill, I really appreciate the "Black Lib" info and the scanned photo.  I've been intrigued by them since purchasing your book and having talked with the son of a P-61 "Black Widow" fighter pilot.  Kingman, AZ must have been  A B S O L U T E L Y  fantastic to have experienced!  In retrospect, it's sad to see all those beautiful A/C's, some factory-fresh, headed to the furnaces, but then again, the war was over, life went on!   Steven 

Steven....I think I will post this again...as you and others......may have missed it....
 
After VE day in Europe, there was a decision to refurbish the fleet that was returning from Europe, so, many aircraft were refurbished,and filled with gasoline and put into storage...it was felt that the aircraft might have to be used to win the war against the Japanese....of course the dropping of the atomic bombs ended  the war...this is the reason for some of the recycling concern making more money from the gasoline drained from the aircraft,than was realized from the melting down of the aircraft.
 
Jim  :-)
 
 

Jim, Yes, I did catch this earlier post, but had forgotten about it!  It was a true reality, and, with the possibility of a prolonged conflict with the Japanese, these assets would have been useful.  Thanks!    Steven

Bill    you're right, the triangle looks like it was added to the picture, it even seems to overlap the tail glazing.
The interesting B-17 is to it's left, 42-97976, the famous "A Bit O' Lace" from the 447th.
 
Steven  re. your earlier post; the Night Leaflet Squadron ( 422 / 406BS ) had 2 all-black B-17s at Cheddington and Harrington, "Shady Lady" and 42-30656; most others just had black undersides.
The gloss black colour was formulated for US night fighters as the AAF found it to be much better at diffusing (I think that's the word ) light on night missions than the RAF matt black night bomber finish. The US colour was " Jet 622 " , the RAF colour was officially " Night " , also used for serials.
The NLS planes may have been in the matt black, difficult to tell when weathered ( although the Triangle J B-17 in Bill's photo still has a high gloss finish as did the NLS B-24s ).
There were all-black B-24s in the Pacific too.                             Nick

  Bill,
 
    If the triangle J was added to the photo, someone went to the trouble to add the reflection on the stabilizer.
 
Steve G