Okay, let's see if anyone has a scanned pic of a CO B-24D in a "ditching test/maneuver."  I remember seeing it in  the booklet: B-24 Liberator in Action (Davis), page 16, but have not found a pic on-line.  I'd appreciate any help. Post either here or PM.  Thanks!  Best Regards!  Steven

Best Regards!
Steven P. Puhl
Willow Run Historian (RET.)
"Home of 8685 Ford Built Liberators"
Life Member: Yankee Air Museum

Never seen any online scans of great quality, but here ya go.
 
 


[image]local://14097/E5FEF2922231487B94AA76C2B1DF1BF9.jpg[/image]

[image]local://14097/31D9D26A09214F859F7774042B49C142.jpg[/image]

Attached Image(s)

SHAEF1944 American Veterans Museum

Great shot of a almost a perfect full stall landing.  I do think the pilot came in a little hot though, I can't see if he has full flaps.
 
Terry T.

Steven,

I suspect the story behind the ditching can be found here: http://oea.larc.nasa.gov/PAIS/Concept2Reality/crashworthiness.html

See second chapter with heading "Langley Research and Development Activities".

B-24 was ditched late 1944. James River, Newport News, VA.

Regards,

Leendert

Steven,

Here's the test B-24 in a better shape: http://lisar.larc.nasa.gov/IMAGES/SMALL/EL-2003-00303.jpeg

Leendert

Steven,

And finally: pilot was Col. Carl Greene of the AAF Materiel Command liaison office at Langley, and co-pilot Maj. Julian A. Harvey.
They came out unhurt, much to the relief of NACA...

Test must have been somewhere in the last week of September 1944.

Regards,

Leendert

Richard,  Good Morning and thank you for the scans!  As I know, and others have posted here and there, the quality may not always be the best but at least it really helps.  In the 1st of the two thumbnail pics, the fourth frame, is the "back broken," the traditional break at the "center wing" section or is it the "angle of the camera?"  I've seen some of the pics in books, but not that particular frame.  Is there a book or reference where one can get a clearer image?  Any help would be appreciated.

Leendert,   Thanks for the "before" pic and additional information! 
 
Best Regards!   Steven

Best Regards!
Steven P. Puhl
Willow Run Historian (RET.)
"Home of 8685 Ford Built Liberators"
Life Member: Yankee Air Museum

Steve:
When they recovered the plane via crane they did some additional damage to it. The nose section broke because as the frames showed the pilot did not do a full stall landing, he dragged the tail just prior to touchdown, and then the front slammed down cause the nose area to brake just ahead of the wing.
 
 Some of the B-17s that ditched that way by dragging the tail section prior to ditching, actually broke off the tail in the area of the ball turret. Best way was the way the Navy did it, nose high tail off the water full stall, who entire plane dropped in the water much better results..
 
Terry T.
 
 
 

Terry,  Thanks for the Post and the info!  As mentioned in Post #24, it's always interesting to read manuals, regardless of A/C type, for the "ditching/escape" procedures.  All does not always go as planned, and based on a lot of factors, the odds really get stacked!  The Lib really suffered in this aspect.  Best Regards!  Steven

Best Regards!
Steven P. Puhl
Willow Run Historian (RET.)
"Home of 8685 Ford Built Liberators"
Life Member: Yankee Air Museum

These three photos are from Al Blue's excellent book about the Lib: "The B-24 Liberator—A Pictorial History" by Allan G. Blue

Photo 1
Caption: The NACA Langley test aircraft goes in...

I lightened it to show some of the aircraft markings.

[image]local://9698/1742BE4A34EB4403A0EF5A8052C52E02.gif[/image]

Attached Image(s)

Ken Alexander
Son of 1st Lt. Clair B. Alexander Jr.
Pilot, B-24s: 10/12/1944 - 04/24/1945
15th AF, 49th Wing, 461st BG, 764th BS
Torretta Airfield, Cerignola, Italy

Photo 2

Caption: ...comes to rest with a typical ditching fracture at station 4.0...

[image]local://9698/8F82C76B23ED4D13A015629657819932.gif[/image]

Attached Image(s)

Ken Alexander
Son of 1st Lt. Clair B. Alexander Jr.
Pilot, B-24s: 10/12/1944 - 04/24/1945
15th AF, 49th Wing, 461st BG, 764th BS
Torretta Airfield, Cerignola, Italy

Photo 3

Caption:
...and is recovered.

Ken

[image]local://9698/83E250B535944E35BBA222C97BF69EC8.gif[/image]

Attached Image(s)

Ken Alexander
Son of 1st Lt. Clair B. Alexander Jr.
Pilot, B-24s: 10/12/1944 - 04/24/1945
15th AF, 49th Wing, 461st BG, 764th BS
Torretta Airfield, Cerignola, Italy

Ken,   Good evening!  Thanks for the scan!  Went to Al's book, and indeed they are there (didin't look too closely in my stack the first time around.)  I appreciate the scans and am actually trying to reconcile some info I've found here at WR with other data.  Appreciate, as always, your help!  Best Regards!  Steven

Best Regards!
Steven P. Puhl
Willow Run Historian (RET.)
"Home of 8685 Ford Built Liberators"
Life Member: Yankee Air Museum

Steven,
1st Lt Guyon Phillips of the 461st BG, comments on B-24 ditching; "You always sweated out ditching when you were over open water. The high wing and soft under-belly did'nt offer you much chance if you had to put her down in the ocean. They showed us a film of a B-24 purposely ditched - empty of course, with the skeleton crew in special pads. The pilot put it down perfectly, then the nose went down and when the fuselage righted itself, the nose had broken off. I wish they had'nt showed us that".

Fair Winds and following seas.
John, (GM 3/C USS Frost DE 144)

Kin to LT. John W. Farnkopf
15th AAF, 52 FG, 4th FS; Madna, Italy
MIA 11/11/44 remains found 12/8/53

Leendert - I was always under the impression that Julian Harvey was the pilot, not the co-pilot, of the Langley ditching test. Film of the event seems to bear this out. Harvey had completed a tour with the 93BG and was assigned to test operations at Eglin Field when he volunteered for the ditching assignment.
 
His post-war behavior was much less heroic, but that's another story. A summary can be viewed at http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,938800,00.html?iid=chix-sphere
 
Al Blue

John,  Thanks for the post!  In the Pilot's Information File 1944 (post #24), it referenced the "prep" for ditching.  Since posting that and reading more, it's quite apparent that the Lib was not the choice for ditching.  The elements really have a "say-so" in what happens!  Best Regards!  Steven

Best Regards!
Steven P. Puhl
Willow Run Historian (RET.)
"Home of 8685 Ford Built Liberators"
Life Member: Yankee Air Museum

Steven,
The following account from Lt Ray Markman of the 459th BG, after being hit by flak on a mission to Ploesti on July 15,1944 while in the tail end Charlie position.
All four engines began to vibrate and complain. Once clear of Yugoslavia the crew began jettisoning guns and amunition over the Adriatic. Ten miles away from home he recieved radio landing instructions. Still the Adriatic loomed large ahead and beneath the Liberator. Down to 2,000ft, the bombardier went aft to jettison the waist windows in preparation for ditiching. The left waist hatch got away from him in the slipstreem and embedded itself in the horizontal stablizer, acting as a speed brake for the lame bomber.
All four engines were cutting in and out, delivering lame power. Markman figured he was only two or three miles to shore and about six from the runway when he knew he had no choice, but to ditch. He cut all four throttles to avoid a surprise burst of power at the last minute from the erratic engines that could yaw the plane dangerously. He leveled out and dragged in tail-low. There was no skipping or planing atop the water; the Liberator slammed to a halt, nose low but, floating. The tail section was broken and hanging down at an angle from the waist. One crewman was lost, the rest saved by fishing boats nearby. At a 1992 reunion, Ray learned why some of the events of the ditching were unclear in his memory; The engineer had administerd him a shot of Morphine upon seeing a bleeding gash on his forehead.  

Fair Winds and following seas.
John, (GM 3/C USS Frost DE 144)

Kin to LT. John W. Farnkopf
15th AAF, 52 FG, 4th FS; Madna, Italy
MIA 11/11/44 remains found 12/8/53

Steven,
I'll try to finish Ray's ditching saga, it will give an idea of the float time of his B-24, my bum hand gave out on me yesterday.
When the tail dragged in tail low, water probably hammered up through the opening where the retracted ball turret nested, ripping the turret free of it's mounts and punching it throught the right side of the fuselage. The top gunner, seated for ditching in the aft of the fuselage, may have been carried out with the careening ball turret; he was never found.
Markman found himself under water, and pondering drowning, until he opened his eyes and saw he was near the #2 engine. He hoisted himself up on the prop dome of that engine and surveyed the wreck topside. He saw an Italian fishing boat nearby so he slipped back into the water to make sure all the crew was out of the B-24. He found his Bombardier, dazed by the crash still seated in the tail section where he assumed his ditching position. The still groggy Bombardier finally head Markman's repeated calls to evacuate the plane. The crew minus the one gunner were taken aboard the fishing vessel and later transferred to a British torpedo boat which took them home. This was Markman's third major incident with his planes.

Fair Winds and following seas.
John, (GM 3/C USS Frost DE 144)

Kin to LT. John W. Farnkopf
15th AAF, 52 FG, 4th FS; Madna, Italy
MIA 11/11/44 remains found 12/8/53

John,   Thank you so much for posting the account!  I've reread it several times while viewing a set of photos and marvel at the fact of the survival rate.  These are the accounts of those with the will to survive.  Again, thanks!  Hope the hand is okay!  Best Regards!  Steven

Best Regards!
Steven P. Puhl
Willow Run Historian (RET.)
"Home of 8685 Ford Built Liberators"
Life Member: Yankee Air Museum

Steven,
I would have been remiss if I had not finished the story. I Think Ray was a pilots, pilot. On his first mission he was shot up by a BF-109 killing his ball turret gunner and disabling the retraction of the ball turret. He informed the crew that upon landing he wanted everyone forward so as not to drag the ball turret with the entomed gunner.   

Fair Winds and following seas.
John, (GM 3/C USS Frost DE 144)

Kin to LT. John W. Farnkopf
15th AAF, 52 FG, 4th FS; Madna, Italy
MIA 11/11/44 remains found 12/8/53