B-24 Liberator: Ditching at Sea

Okay, let's see if anyone has a scanned pic of a CO B-24D in a "ditching test/maneuver."  I remember seeing it in  the booklet: B-24 Liberator in Action (Davis), page 16, but have not found a pic on-line.  I'd appreciate any help. Post either here or PM.  Thanks!  Best Regards!  Steven

Best Regards!
Steven P. Puhl
Willow Run Historian (RET.)
"Home of 8685 Ford Built Liberators"
Life Member: Yankee Air Museum

Never seen any online scans of great quality, but here ya go.
 
 


[image]local://14097/E5FEF2922231487B94AA76C2B1DF1BF9.jpg[/image]

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Attached Image(s)

SHAEF1944 American Veterans Museum

Great shot of a almost a perfect full stall landing.  I do think the pilot came in a little hot though, I can't see if he has full flaps.
 
Terry T.

Steven,

I suspect the story behind the ditching can be found here: http://oea.larc.nasa.gov/PAIS/Concept2Reality/crashworthiness.html

See second chapter with heading "Langley Research and Development Activities".

B-24 was ditched late 1944. James River, Newport News, VA.

Regards,

Leendert

Steven,

Here's the test B-24 in a better shape: http://lisar.larc.nasa.gov/IMAGES/SMALL/EL-2003-00303.jpeg

Leendert

Steven,

And finally: pilot was Col. Carl Greene of the AAF Materiel Command liaison office at Langley, and co-pilot Maj. Julian A. Harvey.
They came out unhurt, much to the relief of NACA...

Test must have been somewhere in the last week of September 1944.

Regards,

Leendert

Richard,  Good Morning and thank you for the scans!  As I know, and others have posted here and there, the quality may not always be the best but at least it really helps.  In the 1st of the two thumbnail pics, the fourth frame, is the "back broken," the traditional break at the "center wing" section or is it the "angle of the camera?"  I've seen some of the pics in books, but not that particular frame.  Is there a book or reference where one can get a clearer image?  Any help would be appreciated.

Leendert,   Thanks for the "before" pic and additional information! 
 
Best Regards!   Steven

Best Regards!
Steven P. Puhl
Willow Run Historian (RET.)
"Home of 8685 Ford Built Liberators"
Life Member: Yankee Air Museum

Steve:
When they recovered the plane via crane they did some additional damage to it. The nose section broke because as the frames showed the pilot did not do a full stall landing, he dragged the tail just prior to touchdown, and then the front slammed down cause the nose area to brake just ahead of the wing.
 
 Some of the B-17s that ditched that way by dragging the tail section prior to ditching, actually broke off the tail in the area of the ball turret. Best way was the way the Navy did it, nose high tail off the water full stall, who entire plane dropped in the water much better results..
 
Terry T.
 
 
 

Terry,  Thanks for the Post and the info!  As mentioned in Post #24, it's always interesting to read manuals, regardless of A/C type, for the "ditching/escape" procedures.  All does not always go as planned, and based on a lot of factors, the odds really get stacked!  The Lib really suffered in this aspect.  Best Regards!  Steven

Best Regards!
Steven P. Puhl
Willow Run Historian (RET.)
"Home of 8685 Ford Built Liberators"
Life Member: Yankee Air Museum

These three photos are from Al Blue's excellent book about the Lib: "The B-24 Liberator—A Pictorial History" by Allan G. Blue

Photo 1
Caption: The NACA Langley test aircraft goes in...

I lightened it to show some of the aircraft markings.

[image]local://9698/1742BE4A34EB4403A0EF5A8052C52E02.gif[/image]

Attached Image(s)

Ken Alexander
Son of 1st Lt. Clair B. Alexander Jr.
Pilot, B-24s: 10/12/1944 - 04/24/1945
15th AF, 49th Wing, 461st BG, 764th BS
Torretta Airfield, Cerignola, Italy

Photo 2

Caption: ...comes to rest with a typical ditching fracture at station 4.0...

[image]local://9698/8F82C76B23ED4D13A015629657819932.gif[/image]

Attached Image(s)

Ken Alexander
Son of 1st Lt. Clair B. Alexander Jr.
Pilot, B-24s: 10/12/1944 - 04/24/1945
15th AF, 49th Wing, 461st BG, 764th BS
Torretta Airfield, Cerignola, Italy

Photo 3

Caption:
...and is recovered.

Ken

[image]local://9698/83E250B535944E35BBA222C97BF69EC8.gif[/image]

Attached Image(s)

Ken Alexander
Son of 1st Lt. Clair B. Alexander Jr.
Pilot, B-24s: 10/12/1944 - 04/24/1945
15th AF, 49th Wing, 461st BG, 764th BS
Torretta Airfield, Cerignola, Italy

Ken,   Good evening!  Thanks for the scan!  Went to Al's book, and indeed they are there (didin't look too closely in my stack the first time around.)  I appreciate the scans and am actually trying to reconcile some info I've found here at WR with other data.  Appreciate, as always, your help!  Best Regards!  Steven

Best Regards!
Steven P. Puhl
Willow Run Historian (RET.)
"Home of 8685 Ford Built Liberators"
Life Member: Yankee Air Museum

Steven,
1st Lt Guyon Phillips of the 461st BG, comments on B-24 ditching; "You always sweated out ditching when you were over open water. The high wing and soft under-belly did'nt offer you much chance if you had to put her down in the ocean. They showed us a film of a B-24 purposely ditched - empty of course, with the skeleton crew in special pads. The pilot put it down perfectly, then the nose went down and when the fuselage righted itself, the nose had broken off. I wish they had'nt showed us that".

Fair Winds and following seas.
John, (GM 3/C USS Frost DE 144)

Kin to LT. John W. Farnkopf
15th AAF, 52 FG, 4th FS; Madna, Italy
MIA 11/11/44 remains found 12/8/53

Leendert - I was always under the impression that Julian Harvey was the pilot, not the co-pilot, of the Langley ditching test. Film of the event seems to bear this out. Harvey had completed a tour with the 93BG and was assigned to test operations at Eglin Field when he volunteered for the ditching assignment.
 
His post-war behavior was much less heroic, but that's another story. A summary can be viewed at http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,938800,00.html?iid=chix-sphere
 
Al Blue

John,  Thanks for the post!  In the Pilot's Information File 1944 (post #24), it referenced the "prep" for ditching.  Since posting that and reading more, it's quite apparent that the Lib was not the choice for ditching.  The elements really have a "say-so" in what happens!  Best Regards!  Steven

Best Regards!
Steven P. Puhl
Willow Run Historian (RET.)
"Home of 8685 Ford Built Liberators"
Life Member: Yankee Air Museum

Steven,
The following account from Lt Ray Markman of the 459th BG, after being hit by flak on a mission to Ploesti on July 15,1944 while in the tail end Charlie position.
All four engines began to vibrate and complain. Once clear of Yugoslavia the crew began jettisoning guns and amunition over the Adriatic. Ten miles away from home he recieved radio landing instructions. Still the Adriatic loomed large ahead and beneath the Liberator. Down to 2,000ft, the bombardier went aft to jettison the waist windows in preparation for ditiching. The left waist hatch got away from him in the slipstreem and embedded itself in the horizontal stablizer, acting as a speed brake for the lame bomber.
All four engines were cutting in and out, delivering lame power. Markman figured he was only two or three miles to shore and about six from the runway when he knew he had no choice, but to ditch. He cut all four throttles to avoid a surprise burst of power at the last minute from the erratic engines that could yaw the plane dangerously. He leveled out and dragged in tail-low. There was no skipping or planing atop the water; the Liberator slammed to a halt, nose low but, floating. The tail section was broken and hanging down at an angle from the waist. One crewman was lost, the rest saved by fishing boats nearby. At a 1992 reunion, Ray learned why some of the events of the ditching were unclear in his memory; The engineer had administerd him a shot of Morphine upon seeing a bleeding gash on his forehead.  

Fair Winds and following seas.
John, (GM 3/C USS Frost DE 144)

Kin to LT. John W. Farnkopf
15th AAF, 52 FG, 4th FS; Madna, Italy
MIA 11/11/44 remains found 12/8/53

Steven,
I'll try to finish Ray's ditching saga, it will give an idea of the float time of his B-24, my bum hand gave out on me yesterday.
When the tail dragged in tail low, water probably hammered up through the opening where the retracted ball turret nested, ripping the turret free of it's mounts and punching it throught the right side of the fuselage. The top gunner, seated for ditching in the aft of the fuselage, may have been carried out with the careening ball turret; he was never found.
Markman found himself under water, and pondering drowning, until he opened his eyes and saw he was near the #2 engine. He hoisted himself up on the prop dome of that engine and surveyed the wreck topside. He saw an Italian fishing boat nearby so he slipped back into the water to make sure all the crew was out of the B-24. He found his Bombardier, dazed by the crash still seated in the tail section where he assumed his ditching position. The still groggy Bombardier finally head Markman's repeated calls to evacuate the plane. The crew minus the one gunner were taken aboard the fishing vessel and later transferred to a British torpedo boat which took them home. This was Markman's third major incident with his planes.

Fair Winds and following seas.
John, (GM 3/C USS Frost DE 144)

Kin to LT. John W. Farnkopf
15th AAF, 52 FG, 4th FS; Madna, Italy
MIA 11/11/44 remains found 12/8/53

John,   Thank you so much for posting the account!  I've reread it several times while viewing a set of photos and marvel at the fact of the survival rate.  These are the accounts of those with the will to survive.  Again, thanks!  Hope the hand is okay!  Best Regards!  Steven

Best Regards!
Steven P. Puhl
Willow Run Historian (RET.)
"Home of 8685 Ford Built Liberators"
Life Member: Yankee Air Museum

Steven,
I would have been remiss if I had not finished the story. I Think Ray was a pilots, pilot. On his first mission he was shot up by a BF-109 killing his ball turret gunner and disabling the retraction of the ball turret. He informed the crew that upon landing he wanted everyone forward so as not to drag the ball turret with the entomed gunner.   

Fair Winds and following seas.
John, (GM 3/C USS Frost DE 144)

Kin to LT. John W. Farnkopf
15th AAF, 52 FG, 4th FS; Madna, Italy
MIA 11/11/44 remains found 12/8/53

Dad wrote the following about ditching and air-sea rescue:

"On the morning of the 22nd [October 1944] our Crew #11 was trucked to the 49th Wing Headquarters at Foggia to attend a lecture on air-sea rescue. On our way we passed mile after mile of identical farm buildings for Mussolini had made this area of Italy into a prototype of small family farms. Apparently all of these single structures had been built using the same plans and having spent one week of two summers working on a farm I couldn't get over the fact that here, the dogs, pigs, horses, cows and farm families all lived under the same roof. At each home there was a haystack on one side, a well in front and that was all for the front yard was just another field of produce. I sure would have hated to have been a farmer who, after downing too many glasses of vino (wine) in the village, tried to find his way and pick out his house/barn on a dark night. The air-sea rescue talks were given by the group based at Acona where they undertook search missions using Catalina flying boats and high speed sea-going cutters. Their job was to rescue the airmen who bailed out over the Adriatic or had been in a bomber that ditched. Their primary means for searching was the two-engined PBY Catalina which was suited for this task for, if necessary, it could stay in the air for 24 hours. They would seek out a downed flyer and if the sea was not running too high, would land and rescue him.

"As part of the lecture they reviewed the ditching procedures for the B-24. Unfortunately the Liberator was a poor performer in doing this for the bomb bay doors were designed to tear open if a bomb accidentally fell off the racks or if in an emergency the pilot pulled the bomb salvo handle. So hitting the sea would usually rip the doors off and the impact of the water on the internal bulkheads almost always broke the ship in two. Whatever transpired, ditching a Liberator lead to the immediate flooding of the fuselage. All crewmembers, excepting the pilots, were to brace themselves behind a bulkhead and as soon as the ship stopped to go out through the upper hatches. There they were to release the two life rafts stowed in lockers on top of the fuselage. After the automatic inflation everybody was to climb in."

Ken

Ken Alexander
Son of 1st Lt. Clair B. Alexander Jr.
Pilot, B-24s: 10/12/1944 - 04/24/1945
15th AF, 49th Wing, 461st BG, 764th BS
Torretta Airfield, Cerignola, Italy

 All crew members, excepting the pilots, were to brace themselves behind a bulkhead and as soon as the ship stopped to go out through the upper hatches. There they were to release the two life rafts stowed in lockers on top of the fuselage. After the automatic inflation everybody was to climb in."
 
Ken,  Great post!  It's amazing when I read your posts with notes from your father's log/memoirs!  When reading this, I think about the logistics of time, weather conditions, status of the A/C, condition of the crew and "whatever else could be going on under combat/emergency situations"  as others have posted.   One would wonder how anyone survived.  The attached photo, used before, gives a good view of the Lib's "raft hatch" as your father mentioned.  Just as an "aside"...  While living in Switzerland during the mid sixties between Berne and Fribourg, my little Volkswagen  had a flat on an isolated rural country road.  Without any knowledge of "Suisse Deutsche" or Swiss German, I found myself getting assistance from a Swiss Farmer whose "home" was actually a combination of a barn/home.  Both the family and the animals lived uner the same roof!  It was reminiscent of your father's experience.  Best Regards!  Steven


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Attached Image(s)

Best Regards!
Steven P. Puhl
Willow Run Historian (RET.)
"Home of 8685 Ford Built Liberators"
Life Member: Yankee Air Museum

Thought I'd add this post from Don from another Thread as it fits fits in great to this Thread.  Best Regards!  Steven
 
Gentlemen:
There are excellent Internet sources of information on B-24 operations in the Pacific.  B-24s were ditched in the Pacific without breaking apart. One B-24 from 27th Bomb Squadron, 30th Bomb Group, called "Miss B Haven" ditched one on July 5 ,1944 ,1500 yards off Eniwetok ,after the plane had been hit by flak over Truk and lost a great deal of fuel. The flight engineer was killed but the rest of the crew survived. The flight engineer was the most vulnerable because he was assigned to release the life raft and had to remain in a dangerous position to do so. The pilot and co-pilot were thrown out through the front widows and suffered broken collarbones when each hit the metal compass. The remainderofthe crew had only bruises. The plane remained afloat for 20 minutes after the ditch. the details are covered in a Missing Aircraft Report.
 
 

Best Regards!
Steven P. Puhl
Willow Run Historian (RET.)
"Home of 8685 Ford Built Liberators"
Life Member: Yankee Air Museum

Steven:
The accident report for this ditiching reflects that the crew followed instructions based upon an earlier ditching by another 7th Air Force crew with slight variations. For example ,all ofthe crew except for the pilot, co-pilot and flight engineer, sat backward within the fuselage resting upon one another so that their bodies would cushion the shock. I understand that ditching instructions were revised after this incident based upon crew recommendations to provide better tools for removal of the ball turret bolts for ease of jettisoning the turret.The injuries caused to the pilot and co-pilot were most likely caused by an unexpected wave hitting the front of the plane.   

Replying to this post-All crew members, excepting the pilots, were to brace themselves behind a bulkhead and as soon as the ship stopped to go out through the upper hatches. There they were to release the two life rafts stowed in lockers on top of the fuselage. After the automatic inflation everybody was to climb in." 


  Sad that in the case of the ditching of "Miss B Haven" on July 5, 1944 in the Pacific, the life raft did not inflate and proved useless. The procedure described above was followed with the crew members braced against the bulkhead and each other, except for the flight engineer, who could not have released the life raft from that area. It was recommended that the lever for releasing the raft be relocated so as not to unnecessarily endanger the flight engineer who otherwise had to remain in position in the front of the plane to operate it. In this ditch, the flight engineer was the only one killed. His body was never recovered.  I do not know if the recommendation reported in the MACR was followed. In any event ,all of the surviving crew except for the pilot and co-pilot sat on a wing of the plane until they were rescued by a navy boat sent out from Eniwetok. The pilot's life vest worked long enough to get him to the surface after he succeeded in unstrapping himself from his seat (which was ejected from the plane with him) but deflated once he reached the surface because of rips from window shards. He was able to remain afloat because the kapok from his seat floated to the surface and he used it under his broken arm to hold himself up and tread water until rescued. The injured co-pilot was able to float on his back until rescued.
Speculation is that the plane stayed afloat for 20 minutes 
 because of air trapped in the fuselage   

Updated information on Miss B Haven, serial number  42-72978 .This plane participated in a raid on Truk Atoll which started from Kwajalein and staged through Eniwetok. The plane was hit by flak at the beginning of a bomb run over Truk and an engine caught fire. The engine was feathered after the completion of the bomb run but a great deal of fuel had been lost by that time. The Army Air Forces WWII chronology indicates that the raid against Truk occurred during the night of July 5-6, 1944 and again during the day on July 6, 1944.

http://paul.rutgers.edu/~mcgrew/wwii/usaf/html/Jul.44.html
However, the AFHSO reported and the MACR 6546 states that Miss B Haven (serial number 42-72978) ditched on July 7 ,1944, 1500 yards off Eniwetok