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B-17 "Mary Ann"

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Anthony J. Mireles
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RE: B-17 "Mary Ann" 2006/09/06 20:25:25 (permalink)
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Mary Ann was a B-17B.  Check my work.  Watch the movie.  Look at the reference material.  There are several B-17Bs that were converted to B-17C configuration, so it is not farfetched.  There is actual photographic evidence.  The most notable is 38-211, which is a B-17B converted to a B-17C configuration.  See the photos in Post # 58 and Post # 59.  It is right there.  Re-read my post.  See the reference material cited in the above post.  There is abundant photo evidence that these conversions took place.  Take a look at the work cited above.  Tony Mireles
Blackie Bales
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RE: B-17 "Mary Ann" 2006/09/06 21:35:06 (permalink)
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Varsity,

You might want to go back and re-read all the posts on their threads.  I think Tony and Alex have eliminated all the B-17C airplanes as the Mary Ann (a lot of hard work).  Tony also thought that the Mary Ann was B-17C 40-2059 and he had to back down.  And the B-17B (MD 105) on the Ken's post is redone as a B-17C.  My two cents.

                                                     Best Regards,

                                                     Blackie Bales
varsity07840
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RE: B-17 "Mary Ann" 2006/09/07 11:28:51 (permalink)
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38-211 had SOME  C model features but was not converted to to a C. No bathtub, no multiple nose gun sockets, no relocated
dome. 2 pane radio room gun hatch. If you look at an enlarged photo you'll see that the waist gun position is not the same as on a C. There is no hinged wind deflector.  Bedsides the revised gun positions, the only other C feature is the football
D/F under the nose in place of the open loop. That was a retro fit to other Bs as well. I have numerous pictures of modified B models, but not one has been modified to incororate all the features necessary to bring it up to C standard.
 
Flying Fortress-Squadron/Signal- Enenest McDowell  pg. 12
Air Force Colors Vol. 1- Squadron/Signal- Dana Bell pgs. 43&47
The Alution Warriors Part 1-John Haile Cloe Pg. 72
Anthony J. Mireles
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RE: B-17 "Mary Ann" 2006/09/07 12:30:21 (permalink)
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Okay varsity what I mean is this: several B-17B airplanes were modified in such a manner that they resemble B-17C airplanes. How is that?  Okay with you?
 
 Why don't you carefully re-read all the posts on this thread and see how several members of this forum were able to eliminate 35 of the 38 B-17C airplanes produced as not being the "Mary Ann" as seen in the movie.  Then when we received the B-17C AF Individual Aircraft History Cards, the whole "Mary Ann" B-17C house of cards came tumbling down.  And while you are at it, perhaps you should go back and re-read my post # 118 and see exactly what I mean when I use the term "the B-17 known as 'Mary Ann.'"  I'm not talking about insert shots of people firing turrets.  You made my point for me though.  The B-17 "Mary Ann", as seen in the movie, has the commander's dome off set to the right, which is clearly a B-17B characteristic (See B-17 In Detail and Scale). 
 
And if you have time, perhaps you should watch the movie "Air Force" on tape and stop the tape at the times indicated in Post # 118 and you will see clearly that the commander's dome is off set to the right (as are several other B-17s taxiing in the movie).  You may have seen the movie a "dozen" times, but I have watched the movie over a dozen times since I first posted this thread over four months ago while trying to get to the bottom of this (I reckon that I have seen the movie more than 100 times since 1974).  I did watch it carefully and attentively several times recently with a remote and clipboard and if you re-read Post # 118 you will see what I am talking about.  I will find the serial number of the B-17B that is known as "Mary Ann" as seen in the movie "Air Force" soon.  Tony Mireles
 
Alex Smart
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RE: B-17 "Mary Ann" 2006/09/07 12:38:53 (permalink)
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hi,

Tony your research and time spent as well as cash leaves me speachless.

Well almost.

Can I just say that the point that varsity07840 is I think making is.
That the  a/c were brought up to the later version's standard with most if not all modifications carried out.
so in words not modified to a C but just an updated B.

If anyone can come up with the serial number for the a/c numbered "86" shown in colour with name "Mary Ann star of Air force" then that must be her.

again "Well done Tony"

Alex
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RE: B-17 "Mary Ann" 2006/09/07 16:39:52 (permalink)
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I think Tony and varsity are confusing the words configuration and specification.  Configuration has to do with form or arrangement and specification has to do with exact detailed description or definition and particulars of performance.  Tony is, judging by his clarification, is referring to form.  This is correct usage of the word configuration.  Varisity, on the other hand, is referring to modifying a B-17B to be exactly like a B-17C in every way.  That would be bringing up a B-17B up to exact B-17C specifications.  Makes sense. 
 
                                                    Best Regards,
 
                                                    Blackie Bales
varsity07840
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RE: B-17 "Mary Ann" 2006/09/08 09:57:36 (permalink)
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The point I was trying to make is that since the modifications to 38-211 are no way near the level of work that would have had to be done to a B model to bring it up to the level exibited on Mary Ann(if it is a B model), it's not a solid validation of the theory. With regards to the location of the dome, I'll check out the film again, but I must point out that if the views in the movie are from inside the cockpit, there's now way to know what aircraft was used for those scenes.  Also, given the tons of material produced about the B-17 in the last 60 years, is it not curious that pictures  of other B models, or Mary Ann before
she got that name, with the same modifications, have not surfaced? Not aircraft like 38-211, but other examples that are the same as Mary Ann, and are noted as modified B models. I've never seen any, or read any text about it. Could Mary Ann be a one of a kind aircraft? Sure.  Stranger examples of one of a kinds existed.  A B-24 with a grafted B-17 nose is one for sure. A  B-17 with Consolidated nose and tail turrets is another.  But, at this point at least, I'm still not convinced . Could I be wrong. Yes.
For years I believed the myth that 40-3097(The Swoose)was at
Clark Field and damaged there on December 8th.
Anthony J. Mireles
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RE: B-17 "Mary Ann" 2006/09/08 12:25:06 (permalink)
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Varsity,
 
The views of "Mary Ann" I am referring to are external shots of an actual B-17 aircraft with the name "Mary Ann" painted on the side.  This is made very clear in the second paragraph of Post # 118.    Believe me we share your pain and frustration.  Many of us on this forum are struggling with 60 year old mysteries and have been misled by popular culture and sloppy historians.  And I am with you about the complete lack of historical record concerning some of these aircraft.  It is baffling.  Yeah, check out the movie and pay attention the times in the movie that I carefully laid out in Post # 118.  The dome is definitely off set to the right in several scenes.  I got a lot of B-17 egg on my face concerning the 40-2059 fiasco but I learned my lesson.   I won't post unless I have something I can point to. 
 
Thanks Alex for the recognition of the hard work and thank you for all of your help. 
 
Thanks Blackie for the dictionary help. 
 
Still looking for the truth.
 
Tony Mireles
Alex Smart
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RE: B-17 "Mary Ann" 2006/09/09 10:35:14 (permalink)
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Hi,
just to recap from the link in post 33
 
Air Force
1943 *v
USAAF- J. Garfield; Story of single B-17 and its crew from Dec. 6 to Pearl to Australia. Very well done, and except for the obligatory "wipe out the Jap fleet" scene, realistic.
Shot at Drew Field, Florida in August 1942. Starring 10 Boeing B-17C/D from Hendrick Field (Sebring, Florida), P-40C's, Republic P-43A Lancer, Bell P-39D's, AT-6's (as "Zeros"), from Drew Field (Tampa) 6 McDill AAF 397 BG B-26C's ("Jap bombers")"I Wanted Wings" YB-17 mock-up. P-39, B-18 wrecks.
Stock footage, footage from "Dive Bomber", and "Captains of the Clouds". SB2U-1 cockpit section for close-ups. Models. Paul Mantz flew camera ships - Lockheed Orion, Stinson Model A, Boeing 100. Director Howard Hawks was a USAAC WWI vet.
 
Note:
 Shot at Drew Field, Florida in August 1942. Starring 10 Boeing B-17C/D from Hendrick Field (Sebring, Florida),
 
Have we as yet found the serial numbers of these 10 aircraft ?
I did in post 117 give the serials of six B17E's that were possibly there during filming. But what of the C's and D's ?
 
Also re:updated/retro fitted .
an updated/retro fitted  B would most likely have been a C.
 
And as for the a/c that flew into Pearl on the 7th what were their serial numbers ?
 
Alex
 
 
Alex Smart
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RE: B-17 "Mary Ann" 2006/09/09 12:35:43 (permalink)
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Hi,
Just to add to the Pearl bit.
 
Ref: "7th December 1941 - The Air Force Story"

B17D's that were there

40-3060
40-3071
40-3077 - Destroyed
40-3080 - Destroyed
40-3082
40-3083 - Destroyed
40-3084
40-3085
40-3089
40-3090 - Destroyed
40-3092
A.N. Other -Destroyed

B17C

40-2049 - Used as Spares
40-2054
40-2063
40-2074 - Destroyed

B17E

41-2408
41-2413
41-2416 - Repairable
41-2429
41-2430
41-2432
41-2433
41-2434

Alex

jhor9
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RE: B-17 "Mary Ann" 2006/09/10 08:26:24 (permalink)
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I took my transition training at Hendricks fld in Dec '42, flying Cs and Ds, maybe Es?

Jules Horowitz, B-17 pilot, 99th BG, 50 missions/sorties
My tour was from 7/19/43-2/13/44
one1
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RE: B-17 "Mary Ann" 2006/09/10 10:37:02 (permalink)
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Alex; A few of these aircraft  have a little bit of history behind them!
  41-2408.   41-2429,    41-2430
 
Alex Smart
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RE: B-17 "Mary Ann" 2006/09/10 11:58:07 (permalink)
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Hi one1,
 
Go on then
 
It is a day of rememberance.
 
So tell us about their history and of those who flew in them.
 
Alex
one1
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RE: B-17 "Mary Ann" 2006/09/10 12:12:56 (permalink)
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41-2408:  used to evacuate MacArthur from the Philippines, 25 Mar 1942!
 
41-2429:  used to evacuate MacArthur's staff 25 Mar 1942.Shot down over Rabul 08 Aug 1942, MEDAL OF HONOR  awarded to crew member!
 
41-2430: shot down 25 Jun 1943, SW Pacific,MACR 14590, Aircraft wreckage discovered in 1982!
 
George
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RE: B-17 "Mary Ann" 2007/12/08 14:59:09 (permalink)
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Apologies if this has already been discussed, but it looks like some pretty good information to me.

http://www.aerovintage.com/airforce.htm

also, scroll down near the bottom or search for 38-583 on the following page:

http://www.aerovintage.com/b17news.htm

anyone know what happened to S/N 38-583? 
Lynn Fairbanks
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RE: B-17 "Mary Ann" 2007/12/08 16:32:47 (permalink)
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I'm doing this strictly from memory but since the topic is the film AIR FORCE I'm pretty sure I remember hearing that director George Lucas once referred to this as one of his favorite movies.  This would have been a number of years ago but I remember thinking that it was great a contemporary director like Lucas would admire a classic movie such as AIR FORCE--in fact, if you think back to the scene in STAR WARS where Harrison Ford's spacecraft is being attacked, it seems to have a lot of parallels to the segment where the Mary Ann is jumped by Zeros.  If somebody remembers any of this, post it just so I know I'm not hallucinating or imagining things!
 
As always, many thanks!
 
Lynn Robert Fairbanks
History Dept.
Paramount High School
Paramount, CA
 
son of James A. Fairbanks 3030th BU
nephew of Jack Widener, 337th BS/96thBG
Anthony J. Mireles
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RE: B-17 "Mary Ann" 2007/12/09 14:55:17 (permalink)
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Apologies if this has already been discussed, but it looks like some pretty good information to me.

http://www.aerovintage.com/airforce.htm

also, scroll down near the bottom or search for 38-583 on the following page:

http://www.aerovintage.com/b17news.htm

 
See Post # 118 in this thread. 
 
Thanks for the link.
shooshoobaby
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RE: B-17 "Mary Ann" 2007/12/09 19:42:51 (permalink)
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Art -
# 38 - 583
Written Off Inventory 10/17/43
Mike
Terry T.
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RE: B-17 "Mary Ann" 2007/12/09 19:51:15 (permalink)
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Mike:
If the plane was condemned (struck off charge) inventory, most likely is was wrecked at an earlier date, but was kept on the books while is was being reduced to spare parts, or someone simply forgot to remove it.
 
 
Terry T.
 
 
 
ng19delta
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RE: B-17 "Mary Ann" 2007/12/10 22:03:56 (permalink)
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I am not sure if the original question was ever answered, but here is a partial answer- based on information from page 33 of "Bombers of WWII", by Jeffrey L. Ethell, (copyright 1994) printed 2001 by Lowe & B. Hould Publishers. (ISBN 0-681-60722-X)

Page shows a color photo of the front right side, which has an obscured (by the engine)  number or letter(C, G, or 6) in very large format, and in front of it "MARY ANN" in large letters, followed below in smaller letters "STAR OF" then below that, in letters the same size as "MARY ANN" the title of the movie "AIR FORCE" These are located below the forward two right rectangle bombadier's windows, starting at the midpoint of the middle window. Lettering is in yellow.

The caption states"A veteran bomber transition B-17D was pulled off the line to star as Mary Ann in one of the better wartime films...Mary Ann is seen here after the filming, back at her training field, on 6 April  1943"

She appears to still have the dark olive drab with grey lower surfaces. I can see another small window above the right center side window, and no navigator's bubble is visible. Much as I look for numbers, I cannot find any... The angle of the photo is from low, outboard of the number 4 engine, centered on the no.4 propeller hub.

Hope this helps!

Robbie

***Apologies*** I just found the same information posted and debated earlier. Sorry I'd missed it in the 7 pages so far... If I find anything new, I'll let you know.

RR
post edited by ng19delta - 2007/12/11 06:20:53
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