bernies
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"Troop Carrier Command and European Air Transport Service are two completely different things." True, but not in the way you mean. European Air Transport Service (P) was not part of Air Transport Command, but was a provisional unit formed by US Air Forces in Europe to control its troop carrier units (its only Transport Group, the 31st, had been transformed into the 516th Troop Carrier Group). EATS was manned by the personnel of the 51st Troop Carrier Wing, which was reduced to a paper unit. In 1946-1947, the 61st Troop Carrier Group (the 15th Troop Carrier Squadron's immediate HQ) was assigned to the paper 51st Troop Carrier Wing, but actually came under EATS. "It would also be incongruous for a Troop Carrier Command unit which was equipped with C-47 and C-54 aircraft to have a B-17 in it's [sic] stable." Perhaps not as a primary U/E aircraft, but no reason not to have one on hand, considering the surplus of aircraft in the theater in 1946, plus the fact that Eschborn Afld was close to EATS Hq in Wiesbaden. "I do see in the Mauer book that 15TCS was based at Eschborn at the time of the incident. But again there is nothing in the record that puts the PLANE in the 15th TCS." The 61st Troop Carrier Group (and its three squadrons, the 14th, 15th, and 53rd) replaced the 441st Troop Carrier Group (and its squadrons) in Sep 1946 as the only flying organizations at Eschborn. The group was supported by the 466th Air Service Group (708th Air Materiel Squadron, 884th Air Engineering Sq). There was also a Labor Supervision and a Labor Service unit at Eschborn, but most personnel in these units were not Americans. While it is possible that the folks "stationed at Eshborn" came from one of those organizations and were passengers, it seems more likely than not that the squadron had a few of its folks on board to keep an eye on the headquarters weenies flying the plane. Oh, Arrow1, 5,000 meters is high enough to clear Mont Blanc. Typo?
Bernie Shearon Push the stick forward, the houses get bigger. Pull the stick back, the houses get smaller (unless you keep pulling -- then they get bigger again)
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jpeters140
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Alex K...A little clarification for you and others....ALL pilots in WW II were assumed to be PILOTS, and as such, were often called on to fly aircraft other than what they would normally fly. Example...if a B-24 was at one location and a crew was needed to fly the B-24 to another location, many times, the Base Operations Officer at the original base would screen any and all persons looking for a ride to another location, and select a pilot, copilot, engineer and radio operator from those wishing transportation to a base in the same direction as the aircraft was suppposed to go....the pilot might be a Navy pilot, the copilot could be a B-25 copilot, the navigator coiuld be qualified in any aircraft, and the engineer could be a Martin B-26 engneer, the radio operator could, like the navigator from any aircraft...and the Base Operations Officer could form a crew, and tell the formed aircrew, that the B-24 needed to leave in two hours, and go. This is one reason for a lot of WW II accidents due to this practice ...(in my opinion). ( I verified this, with one of the WW II pilots). Jim :-)
James S. Peters Sr. T/Sgt B-17 Flt Engr, 27 missions 99 BG, 348BS, 5th Wing, 15th AAF Tortorella, (Foggia#2), Italy My Tour was from 12/03/44-06/19/45 M/Sgt USAF (Retired)
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jpeters140
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Alex...I was able to verify this with one of the WW II pilots. Please keep in mind that the Boeing Company owned forerunner of the B-17 was the start of checklists for all aircraft that have since graduated into other disciplines, such as Medicine, where pratically everthing today uses checklists. It was a time of learning the hard way at times. Jim :-)
James S. Peters Sr. T/Sgt B-17 Flt Engr, 27 missions 99 BG, 348BS, 5th Wing, 15th AAF Tortorella, (Foggia#2), Italy My Tour was from 12/03/44-06/19/45 M/Sgt USAF (Retired)
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benotforgot
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Just an FYI . . . I posted a request on my genealogy blog for assistance in this project . . . it will go out to my Twitter list as well as appear on my Facebook page . . . and there is quite a list of genealogists reading both . . . http://benotforgot.blogsp...eeded-finding-kin.html . . . I will also be contacting several known cousins of William Hilton seeking more info, photos, etc. . . . e-y'all later . . . Vickie in Texas . . .
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susank
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Hi Alex - I see the photo that you posted on this forum of the ceremony in Eschborn for this crew and you have kindly added a few of the photos to the Find A Grave pages for the crew of this plane. Could you possibly please upload any pictures pertaining to these men that you may have into an album on this forum to be shared with everyone? Thank you! Susank
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B17MontBlanc
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Mr. Alex K I must point out a mistake in your message about the awarding of the "Legion of honor" to Mrs. Anne Cobb. That important decoration was presented to Mrs. Anne Cobb personally because of outstanding services of her personally given to France (not on behalf of her father) . Will you please amend the message. Thanks P.Duranti (Enclosed a copy of the invitation to the awarding ceremony )
post edited by B17MontBlanc -
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susank
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I attach an article from Stars and Stripes, dated 22 Jun 1946. Col. Upham was pilot of a B-17. Thank you for the pictures, Alex. Dave - I can find no evidence that Ford Larimore Fair was a Jr. I have found references to a Brig. Gen. with the same name. All of the references that include biographical data for the Col. or the Brig. Gen. give the same birth/death dates as 1898/1946. Can you clarify, please?
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bernies
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Mont Blanc is the highest mountain in the Alps and is 4810m (15, 782') high according to Wikipedia, so I still believe 5000m (16,404' according to Wolfram|Alpha, not 15,500') is prbably a typo.
Bernie Shearon Push the stick forward, the houses get bigger. Pull the stick back, the houses get smaller (unless you keep pulling -- then they get bigger again)
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sewingsailor
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Greetings! Found your message tonight as I was working on my maternal genealogy. I am a VERY distant relative of Major Cobb. I would be greatful for whatever you can share regarding your discovery and planned events for this summer. I am on active duty in the Navy, currently stationed in Seoul, Korea and don't know that I would be able to get time off to attend as the situation with nKorea is always up and down, making it hard to plan/commit to trips. And right now, of course, we are locked on with support to the people of Japan and our shipmates stationed there. But I am still very interested. Thank you to all of you for your efforts in researching this particular crew. -Leslie
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susank
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Hello Leslie There is much to tell. I will send you a private message. Susank
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pymcat
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pymcat
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pymcat
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googling uncles name came across this forum. my uncle was L. Alfredo D. Ramirez thank you for remembering
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H2X
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Col Hudson H Upham had previously been CO of the Carpetbaggers at Harrington and was CO of the 306th BG Thurleigh from 16/04/45 to 5/46. Would have been heavily involved with Project Casey Jones.
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B17MontBlanc
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We have been working over the last six months, since the first request for help from this forum, to contact the families of the crew of this aircraft. As we have learned since last year, the plane flew directly into the side of the mountain and when it shattered, the debris and crew remains were swallowed up by the two glaciers on each side of the point of impact. Ever since 1954, the artifacts have been found by hikers and climbers on Mont Blanc. We in Italy and France will join together on September 3 and 4 of 2011 to install plaques - one on the Italian side and one on the French side of the Aiguille des Glaciers of the Mont Blanc Massif to remember this particular crew, but we are remembering and giving our respect to the thousands of U.S. military members who sacrificed their lives in order to return to us our freedom. We hope that this small effort will keep that memory alive for all time. Several of the family members of two of the crew will attend the ceremonies planned and we welcome anyone who would be in the area of Bourg St. Maurice in France or Courmayeur in Italy that weekend to join us. We are launching a website dedicated to the crew and to telling the story of their last flight: http://www.b17montblanc.org/ It is an evolving project but our goal is to provide the facts that we have learned and to tell the stories of the crew. We even found a photograph of the aircraft! We will complement the information that is on the website of Francis Raout, the Frenchman who was a member of the French Alpine Battalion which first discovered the remains on August of 1947 on the Glacier des Glaciers. Monsieur Raout, now retired, started an internet blog in 2008 and that is when the French-Italian-American connection was made. Here is a link to the first pages of the 68-plus pages on his website about the B-17: http://www.sapeurpompier-filsdefrance.com/categorie-10754455.html We welcome you to visit the website and we welcome any comments or information. You will find our contact information under the very logical heading, “Contacts”. Pierluigi
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