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A couple of simple questions (and one that maybe isn't)

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Ocelot
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A couple of simple questions (and one that maybe isn't)

Hi
I'm embarrassed to ask this, but I have googled my brains out and haven't found the answer.
I think I'm correct that the 466th Group was comprised of the 784th, 785th, 786th and the 787th Squadrons, but were the aircraft in the squadrons all B-24s? And how many aircraft per squadron? I'm specifically interested in the 787th. In the pictures I've seen there are so many planes that I'm having a difficult time comprehending the scale of the group.
 
So far, I think my research has been pretty impressive, to me anyway. All I had 3 days ago was my late uncle's name and where he is buried in the US. I now know his group, his squad, the serial number of his plane, it's nickname (+ a picture of the nose art), what sort of run he was on when he crashed, what supposedly caused the crash, the MACR# and where he was buried in France before he was apparently disinterred and brought back to the US. 
 
Now this question might not be so easy. I'd like to find out his Crew#. I thought it would be listed somewhere in the information I compiled, but it's either not there or it's staring me in the face and I just don't know where to look.

This is what I have:
Plane Serial #: 41-29439
Type: B-24(H)
“Gallopin’ Ghost”
787th(BS)
On 29 SEPT 1944 they were returning to Attlebridge from a truckin' run to St. Dizier, France, when all 4 engines failed and they crashed near Liancourt (or possibly St. Quentin), France. There were 6 crewmen on the flight, all KIA:
1st Lt. Marshall K. Lewis, Jr. - Pilot (my uncle)
2nd Lt Sheldon L Adler - Co-Pilot
2nd Lt Herbert F. Minard - Bombardier (Although noted to be acting as Navigator on the mission)
T/Sgt Paul E. Miller - Radio Opr
T/Sgt Samuel Dragoon - Engineer
Sgt Wilbur R. Hain - Observer
 
The MACR# is 15774. What I got off of Fold3 has that title, but it's only a couple of pages long, most of which are memos between various officers about what information they can release to the men's families. I could be wrong, but a report stating 6 crewmen KIA; "crash caused by failure of all for engines, reason unknown" seems a little vague. Shouldn't it at least have some notation about the aircraft's last inspection? 
 
Oops - one more question: Would a crew of 6 be all that's required for a truckin' run?
 

 
I'm sure you've all seen this, but as I'm doing my research I keep coming back and watching it again. It seems so sanitized and romanticized compared to the images we see of wars now, yet it was just as brutal. My uncle was only 23 years old.
 

 
 
 

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    wreck_diver
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    Re:A couple of simple questions (and one that maybe isn't) (permalink)
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    A really good source of information that probably will give you his crew number is the book: Attlebridge Diaries: The History of the 466th Bomardment Group (Heavy) by John.H.Woolnough. Towards the end of the Book is a list of pilots and their crew numbers. It also has a comprehensive list of missions for the 466th.
     
    Hope this helps
    rhammans
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    Re:A couple of simple questions (and one that maybe isn't) (permalink)
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    Attlebridge Diaries lists your uncle's crew as #741 (although it lists him as Marshall E. Lewis). While they are not listed in the crew pages of another unit history, Attlebridge Arsenal, there is a reference in an appendix to the Lewis crew, #741, as having flown Gallopin' Ghost in combat, and in the crew list for the 787th, with the proper middle initial. Unfortunately, that's all the info Arsenal has about your uncle's crew, wiith one exception. In a section at the end on the ground echelon, the book notes that a Wilbur Haines, an assistant crew chief with the 787th, was killed on 9/29/44 during a “Trucking” mission to France. So it sounds like he not ordinarily flight crew, but was getting some air time. Diaries has one short paragraph about the crash, with the crew members' names, and, here, the assistant crew chief listed as Hain.
     
    Re: your other questions. The 466th flew solely B-24's. As you know, they had the standard four squadrons. Someone with more knowledge than I will most likely ring on the number of a/c. I think the number of planes assigned to each squadron varied early on from, say, 12-16, rising as the war went on. By the time the 466th reached combat, I'd say there were most likely 16-20 assigned, but I could be wrong.
     
    Three of the four squadrons would have participated in most missions, with all four flying occasionally. The mission list in Diaries shows that the group generally put up a number varying between the mid- to high-20's up to the mid-30's. Some missions had 35-49 a/c dispatched, and it looks like the high number was 47 in June '44, exceeding 40 at least 2 other times. (I can provide more detail later, if you would like.)
     
    I think 6 was a pretty typical number for a gas hauling mission. Generally, they did not like to put up any more men than necessary, due to the danger on any mission. (The 466th lost another 6-man crew on another “trucking” mission on 9/23.) Crews on most missions would have been 10, but that could fall to 9, if the bombardier or ball turret gunner was not needed. A lead crew could have as many as 12 (carrying up to 3 navigators), and my great-uncle's waist gunner told me they had 13 on at least one mission, when General Peck flew with them.
     
    My great-uncle was Paul W. Perry. He and his crew flew 13 missions with the 492nd (H) before it was disbanded, and 17 with the 466th (plus at least 2 gas hauling missions.) They started in the 785th BS, and then were transferred to the 784th. His diary is up at the 492nd's website, http://www.492ndBombGroup.com. Look for the Perry crew, under stories. The last couple sections or so have entries for the time they were at the 466th.
     
    Nice work on your research by the way. It's pretty compelling, isn't it?
     
    If you'd like, I can make some book recommendations for learning more about operations, etc.
     
    Reed Hammans
    jpeters140
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    Re:A couple of simple questions (and one that maybe isn't) (permalink)
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    Check the RESEARCH Section at the beginng of this website...if there was a MACR, there possibly was also a German KU Report on the crash site.

     As far as the total members of a crew was concerned...a minimum of 5 crew members was required for ANY flight...(test hop for an engine change...a ferry crew, to relocate an aircraft), etc. 
    The minimum five crew membrs were the navigator, both pilots,a flight engineer and a radio operator.
     
    Jim :-)

    James S. Peters Sr. T/Sgt B-17 Flt Engr, 27 missions 99 BG, 348BS, 5th Wing, 15th AAF Tortorella, (Foggia#2), Italy My Tour was from 12/03/44-06/19/45 M/Sgt USAF (Retired)
    Ocelot
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    Re:A couple of simple questions (and one that maybe isn't) (permalink)
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    Thank you all for responding - especially about Attlebridge Diaries and Attlebridge Arsenal. I came across the names of both books during my research, but wasn't sure if there was enough information specifically about my uncle to make it worth ordering either at this point (my budget is limited). I will definitely check out your great uncle's diary Reed! On youtube I watched an interview with Carl Mula. He was in the 787th at the same time as my uncle and was wounded during a similar fuel run less than a month before my uncle's crash. It was fascinating listening to him, since I imagine their experiences were much alike. 
     
    I'm still trying to get a complete MACR. I sure the few pages I got off of the Fold3 site can't be correct. 
     

    bcurtis419
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    Re:A couple of simple questions (and one that maybe isn't) (permalink)

    For more information my contact information can be found on my website: www.billcurtisvideoproduction.com
    dsmith
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    Re:A couple of simple questions (and one that maybe isn't) (permalink)
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    The smaller "Gas Haul'in" Crew size was due to the fact that they carried no guns on board....thus no gunners. Anything and everything unnecessary was removed to haul more gasoline. Since these missions were into Allied occupied France, they were not counted as combat missions and the crews received no credit towards their required missions.
    Quite ironic as the "Gas Haul'in" Missions were as, if not more, dangerous than the bombing missions. Not only did they take off heavy, but landed heavy.
    My Dad flew a number of those missions and the entire aircraft reeked of fuel vapors. They carried small jerry cans, fighter drop tanks and basically anything that would hold fuel.
    Darin Scorza
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    Re:A couple of simple questions (and one that maybe isn't) (permalink)
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    The 458BG (part of the 96CBW along with the 466BG and 467BG) took part in these Truckin' missions as well.  They carried a six man crew: pilot, co-pilot, navigator, flight engineer, radio operator and one gunner.  Some of the men, flight and ground crew, took the opportunity to tag along so they could go to France.  Whether these extra passengers were authorized or not, I cannot say for sure, but I tend to lean towards "not".
     
    I think the crews were pretty upset that they recieved no credit for these cross-Channel hops, which as it turns out, were just as dangerous as combat! The 458BG lost two crews - one crashed on take off with all men killed and another was shot down by flak after straying of course when retruning to England, all killed but one man who ended up as a POW.  One additional crew cracked up on landing in France.   The group's records had an interesting section devoted to this phase of operations in September 1944, and can be seen here: http://www.458bg.com/truckin.htm.  Unfortunately I have been unable to find anything in the way of briefing notes or crew lists for these missions.

    Darin Scorza
    Son of 1Lt Samuel D. Scorza
    Navigator 755BS 458BG 8AF
    October 1943-July 1944
    www.458bg.com
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