Tom I was just telling my dad the same thing the other day. I feel like I am telling his story for the rest of the family. While my mom is in North Carolina she my have located Fred R.  Becks son. His wife was pregnant when he was KIA. I guess the family's lost touch not to long after my great uncles death. I know about the one report on my great uncle its driving me crazy.I do hope i find something.
My grandmas lives in Trinity Which is halfway between Highpoint and Tomasville NC. I was born in Greensboro NC and currently reside in a suburb of Los Angeles.

JC:
Tom may be the best person to talk about this Im sure he will see the post and respond to you. He talked to the surviving crew members. However we both belive that the Filer crew may have not spent much time together and were replacement crews and plane. Did you happen to get the name of the plane or the serail num# of the plane for the Sterler and Seefurth crew?
I have the MARC report if you would like to see give me your e-mail address and I will forward it to you. The casualty reports have missions and dates at the bottom.

Stephen

That is a great story. I keep meaning to ask you about T/Sgt Charles E. Williams(R) POW. Was that the one you never talked to? He is on the cover sheet of the MACR or did any of the crew have anything to say about him.

Stepehen

Well Tom that is a good question about what got me started. My wife Erica and I go to Palm Desert about 3 to 4 times a year. Every time we go I drag my wife to the air museum were they have two full hangars of working WWII Airplanes. One hangar for the Pacific theater on one for the European theater. And we always visit the B-17 The Miss Angela and like always do walk through tour of the plane. This time they had a WWII vet that had flown on 30 something missions and went on to telling me about his story abou being shot down over Germany. So I told him about my great uncle Beck and how no one really knows what happened, only that he was a tail gunner and that they think it was in B-17, and was shot down over France. He got me started on what air force to look at which was the 8th air force. Also . So I started going though each bomb group data base until I got to the 96 bomb group web site and found my uncle Becks name on the honor role. Then I found the mission they flew on on May 12th 1944 which matched the tomb stone. Then i found this forum and found out he was LWG not a tail gunner and he was shot down over Germany not France and the stories you have told me and from others on the forum. Then i was able the the MARC report Num# which confirms everything I was told. I basically got tired of my family members saying not knowing what happened and  it bothered me that no one seemed to want to find out more. This guy gave his life and I felt i needed to honor him better than that. He deserves better than that and here I am talking to his co- pilots nephew.

I really would like to find more out on Lido H Mochetti too. But what is inersting is that my mom was asking grandma some questions on Beck yesterday and grandma said somthing about someone losing his head and they had to leave him behind. So my mom asked grandma were she got that info and she told my mom that Irene told her not long after it happened. She went on to say that Irene visited someone in Texas and they told her a few things, But like i said before the familys lost touch and my grandma has completely lost her memory. This was the first time we had ever heard her say that and my mom never told her about the going "crazy" park of the MARC.
 
Stephen

Actually it was Irene Fred R. Becks wife who traveled to Texas and told my grandmother. Hopefully if my mom is successful contacting Fred's son we might be able to get a crew photo or something.

I guess i missed the part about them not getting the order to bail. I guess i was thinking maybe since there positions on the plane were up front and communication was out, that Filer just yelled at them to bail out. Then when Thornhill and Prince saw them fly bye they decided to bail. I wonder why they would just bail. There was one thing else I wanted to mention. The MARC states that the stabalizer was gone and a full bomb load with 3 engines out. Did any of them mention why the plane did not explode.

Something weird also happen to day. A women walked in my office today and saw some paper work on my desk about the 8th air force. Her husband flew B-17s for the 96bg and two different squads she believes it was the 337th and the 338th. Her husband is supposed to come in to talk to me.

I also left my phone num# in you personal mail box

Stephen

Hey Tom

Sorry I made that confusing. But what I was trying to say is they only had 1 working engine and 3 were out. I have a freind who is a pilot and i am attempting to get my pilot license soon and he was telling me it must have been hard to control because the stabilizer is what keeps the plane going straight. This can sometimes be corrected with multiple engine aircraft if the stabilizer is missing.I know they were not on fire but wondering why when they hit the ground they did see an explosion from the bombs. What you said makes sense though about the bombs being pretty stable.

You can call anytime really, I am usually home from work around 6:00pm and go to bed around 12 or so.

I just got this reply Tom from another forum coped and pasted here
This is supposed to be Stormy Weather.

Stephen -
There is 1 Photo listed in my Photo Reference.
Book:
Combat Profile: B - 17 Flying Fortress in WW II
by Roger Freeman  Page 42
Mike






Stephen

Well i hope this is the right plane i have not see the picture yet. This is abook someone told me about on the forum. I am tring to find it.

I just looked back the MARC and it definitely says with three engines out, This is on page 21 of the MARC

Tom this message was sent on the first page of the forum
Stephen,
 Lynn has been great in getting copies of MACR's  to people.  The only info I have comes from the book Snetterton Falcons  which states that Filer was severely wounded and tried to control the plane so his men could bail out. Three engines were gone and a lot of the stabilizer. Five men did escape the plane but Filer, Lavigna,Mochette, Brogen and Beck were lost when the plane crashed at Ballmuth. Also Crew was listed under New Crews Assigned April 1944 (to Snetterton England)
 
Berk

I am also seeing if the NARA has any more records other than MARC that might tell what happene and still waiting on the other MARC files hoping they are better quality.

To answer about the time of the plane crash. There is metion in the MARC report at 1130 hrs. May 12, 1944

Stephen

Man this is getting confusing Stephen,

 Ballmuth, thats the first I've heard that being the site of the crash. But I'm very happy to have additional facts about the event. Information I got from day one on Stormy Weather was that it was attacked/ shot down over  Eisenbach, I place it north west of Frankfurt. This came to me from the guy who wrote the book and  established the missingplanes.com site back in 1997. 

Can anyone verify Ballmuth as the site of the crash from any other supporting documentation, or is S Falcon the only source? Just want to verify that's it's the best information we got.  If the plane was attacked over Eisenbach and crashed in Ballmuth, it had some real serious flying time after sustaining it's damage from the initial attack. I located Ballmuth a good distance south east of Frankfurt, can you verify?

During my discussions with the crew, no one disputed me stating that Eisenbach was the site of the attack and possible crash. Thornhill did tell me that he landed in Bad Camberg after bailing out, which is very close to Eisenbach. Wonder if this Ballmuth crash information was determined during a later investigation after the war and the crew never knew?Does Falcon reference a source?  

I have to admit, that statement made by Charles W Thornhill (TG) on the MACR with information he got from John H Dink (N) and George Turcott (B) is ambiguous to me. It's the wording that bothers me. When I specifically asked John H Dink about the attack and the extent of the damage that resulted he said.  

 "We were flying at 16,000 feet, in tail gun Charlie position.  It was approximately high noon and we were about an hour out from our target. A fighter, I believe it was a FW 190 at 2 o'clock raked the length of our plane with  20mm cannon fire. This killed the copilot Fred Lavigna (your uncle), wounded  Charles Filer (the pilot) also killing the (LW) gunner Fred beck and (RW) gunner Carl Brogren . It caused damage to the cockpit and  Number 3 engine was knocked out." 

Mr. Dink also said that. "In addition to the others, radioman Charles E Williams was wounded in that attack and I initially thought he was dead."  I asked him what condition Lido Mochetti (engineer) was in after the attack, Mr. Dink said " Mochetti was in the cockpit unharmed as far as I could tell. He was attempting to help Charles Filer. Mochetti kept screaming out for someone to bring him the emergency ax/hatchet." 

I asked Mr. Dink "what Machetti needed the hatchet for?" He said " I don't know, maybe to cut away some wreckage trapping Filer in the cockpit?" I wondered why he wouldn't know so I asked him, "didn't you actually see Mochetti, Filer, Lavigna and the condition of the cockpit" Mr. Dink said "No"


Mr. Dink only stated to me that Mochetti was providing aid to Filer in the cockpit and that he was repeatedly calling out for someone to bring him the emergency hatchet.  With Fred Lavigna (copilot) out of commission and Lido Moshetti being the engineer. Providing aid to Filer (pilot) in the cockpit is exactly were Mochetti should have been according to Air Corp Regulations.

The fact that Thornhill did not provide any of his own observations on that MACR page indicating multiple attacks coming from behind or below and none in his conversations with me. Reduces the likelihood that such attacks occurred while he was still on board.  However, Thornhill did raise the possibility that  their plane may have received additional damage from" friendly fire" due to their position in the formation.  Have you been able to determine the extent of first hand information that Mr. Dink and Turcott provided  on the MACR? 

Tom

Thats not actually my uncle Beck right?That is cool pic of him scanning the sky for German fighters. The next time i go to Palm desert i will go back t the B-17 that started me on this mission and i will know which place my great uncle was.

Maybe we should try contacting them again or hopefully someone will see the forum and tells what happened to Stormy Weather.

Pics of me at the B-17 that started it all

http://www.facebook.com/p...226e&id=1190581378
http://viewmorepics.myspa...04&imageID=2616239

The story my grandma always has told was the bones were mixed together. Now whether that's how they were found at the crash site or the Germans put them in a mass grave I am not sure.
Its seems like to me if they were found at the crash site the bones would be some what in tacked unless animals or something got to them, but from what you say it was in a some what populated area. So if what my grandma says is true it was they were all buried together at Arlington . Do you know the year your uncle Fred Lavigna memorial was at Arlington?