Forum members, President Bush's recent comment about Auschwitz has given me the temerity to ask of the membership a question that has arisen from my research regarding the Frantic 1 mission on June 2, 1944, in particular over Debrecen Hungary. This is not a political question, as is the guideline of this forum, nor is it a topic I am particularly fond of. I am asking it because it enters into my research work. First let me outline the background that helped form this question.
On June 2, 1944 squadrons of the 15th Army Air Force, 5th Wing bombed the railway marshalling yards in Debrecen. During the attack one B-17 of the 414 BS was shot down. The Wing successfully hit their target and flew on to the USSR as part of Operation Frantic. This I have studied with the help of the members of this forum.
I am working in Debrecen at the moment and was therefore able to examine this mission in more detail, in particular what was happening on the ground at the time of the event.  It is this perspective that has led me to the current point of my work. Let me briefly fill in what was going on below the B-17s and P-51s.
In March 1944 Germany had attacked its Hungarian ally believing that it was trying to withdraw from the Axis alliance and with Hitler's displeasure concerning the Hungarian Jews. The Hungarian leader, Horthy, had prevented their being transported to Germany and Poland because he needed them for war work in the factories. Following the occupation Eichmann arrived and there was a nationwide roundup of Jews in Hungary. This was also underway in Debrecen and the surrounding countryside. Two ghettoes were established in Debrecen within which thousands of Jews were gathered ( the total figure of Jews in Debrecen was between 9,000 to 12,000). They were being gathered to be transported to Auschwitz, and they would board the trains in Debrecen station.
There were three synagogues in the city, the largest being located not far from the train station. Surrounding this oldest synagogue were many apartments and residences of the Jewish community.
On June 2nd a large group of Jews were being prepared to begin their journey to Poland. The planes of the 5th Wing arrived in the morning and dropped their bombs while making their way through AA groundfire. One squadron was forced to go around and make a second approach because of the smoke from the target. A portion of the bombs fell short, a portion hit the target, and many overshot the target and fell into a large area of residences, businesses, and apartments; including the area that contained the old synagogue and the Jewish area.
What is curious is that most of the Jewish residences were empty at the time, most of the Jews having been collected inside a ghetto in the center of the city. Soon after the mission the Jews were put aboard trains and sent off to Poland. There were about 700,000 Jews in Hungary before WW2, there are now about 80,000.
My question to the membership is this; as far as anybody knows was this mission to Debrecen in any way, or in any part carried out to hinder the transport of Hungarian Jews to Poland or other concentration camps? Did any crew know in any way what was going on in Hungary at the time? Are there any documents, reports, or personal communications that might give an answer to these questions?
I have been led to these questions because the timing of the two events, the schedule to transport Jews from Debrecen station, the bombing of Debrecen station by the 5th Wing; they intersected so closely it may not have been just a coincidence. Thank you for any response you may give me in this matter. Zamasr

I will try to answer you with this : 

As far as I know....the targets were selected by higher HQ...and toward the end of the war, were co-ordinated by no less than SHAEF HQ in England,where the 8th and 15th targets were deterimined...and I suspect the targets of the 9th and 12th AFs were also co-ordinated with the heavies.

I know on at least one occasion, we in the 15th hit one target as the 8th was leaving the same target. so there had to be co-ordination.

We as airmen, did what we were told and bombed what we were told. It was NOT a happenstance that certain targets were selected....I don't think the average airmen or bomber crews were aware of any targets close to the concentration camps...if we had bombed the railway marshalling yards that were next to the concentration camps...on purpose, there would have been, I am sure,  many casualties among the victims in those camps.

A thought...if we had known we were bombing the camps, there undoubtably would have been several of us who would have objected to that bombing...some of the airmen were bothered by ANY bombing...I personally never felt any guilt....it was war...it is all about killing...you either kill, or get killed.. It has always been thus, through the ages of man.

The English Chamberlain was proud of his treaty with Hitler...Hitler ignored the treaty, and the war expanded.

In my opinion, it was co-incidence...and was not planned.  Hindsight is always a good subject...if I had to live my life over and had to make the decisions I made at the time, WITH WHAT I KNEW AT THE TIME, .I would make those same exact decisions.

Your views may vary.

Jim :-)

James S. Peters Sr. T/Sgt
B-17 Flt Engr, 27 missions
99 BG, 348BS, 5th Wing, 15th AAF
Tortorella, (Foggia#2), Italy
My Tour was from 12/03/44-06/19/45
M/Sgt USAF (Retired)

jpeters, Thank you for such a prompt and interesting reply to a difficult question. I appreciate your help that you have freely lent my efforts in this forum. I am now nearing the end of this project and must say it has taken several unexpected turns along the way. My respect for the men and women who flew, maintained, and organized the Allied air effort in WW2 has grown immensely from this experience. My colleagues in Debrecen Hungary have been following its progress and have added an additional framework to the information that has been gathered to date.

I do have several questions and comments to your post. You mentioned an experience when squadrons from the 8th AF had just finished a mission over a city when squadrons of the 15th AF then arrived and  commenced to bomb the same target. Can you recall what city that was?
 
I would like to clear up one point from my post about the holocaust and Debrecen; the ordinance that fell onto the city did not hit a concentration camp, rather it in part missed the train station and fell onto residences of the Jewish quarter (their homes and apartments, their shops etc.) which at the time were unoccupied. The Jews had been removed to two ghettoes that were a safe distance from the bomb fall. It is as if the Germans had saved the Jewish people from the US bombs, only to send them to Auschwitz for extermination. War is such an inexplicable thing.

There was one comment that you wrote I don't think I have read any where else concerning the air war in WW2. You posted that there were aircrew who would have objected to the bombing of concentration camps..and that there were crew that objected to 'any' bombing.  It was this last element that surprised me; did these men continue to carry out their missions?

Finally, your comments about hind sight are true. But it is from hindsight that we learn the lessons an experience such as a world war have to teach us. The experience 'as it is happening' is valuable and helps one get through the push of immediate events. Hindsight can help us learn about ourselves so that in the future others will not have to repeat the same experience. That has been my goal in this study of the Frantic 1 mission over Debrecen. And the Army Air Forces Forum is a valuable help in trying to achieve that goal. Thanks again. Zamasr

The city that the 8th BGs were leaving as the 15th arrived was Munich...I think,..Bill Somers, also a flight engineer in my squadron, who wrote his  book Fortress Fighters, mentions this event.

There are accounts of some airmen, both B-17s  and B-24, who have been bothered by the killing of innocent civilians...well, I never felt that way....the atrocities by the Germans reminds me of one German who complained that the Americans did not fight fair...I have no sympathy for him...the Germsns started the war

I have read some accounts where some were bothered to the extent that pyschiatric help had to be administerd to them.

I will recount a story told me by a person who had the job of measuring a downed Japanese aircraft and sending the report back to the U.S. .....he had been appointed to Officer Training School...and had been ordered to paint a mural on the wall of a room that depicted the war as it really was.....a Major had been making life miserable for him, until one early morning when the Major came into the room where he was busy painting....and the Major was almost in tears...and asked this person if his painting was true in it's depicition....and the Major confessed that he had just received his orders for an assignment that would put him in combat, and he was SCARED that he might be a coward...the painter told him there was no way to know, unitl he actually was in combat...I think everyone feels this...but if you are trained well, it becomes your duty to do your job..and after it is over, wiith your survival, it was not so bad after all...you were afraid, which is normal...but when it is over, you know that you did your job and while the next time you are afraid again, you know you are not a coward.

As a crew, we were a family and as such, we depended on each other to his job....there was no thought of being a hero...we had a job to do and we did it. I think all of us in WW II feel that the heros are the ones who did not come back...the rest of us were just doing our jobs that we were trained for.  I know I feel that way.

And yes, almost to a man, everyone did thier respective job..however scared they might have been. There were isolated cases, some had very traumatic experiences...but, I only heard of one or two. Most went on and performed their jobs.

In talking to this painter...I made a remark that a lot of men that received awards for valor, actually were in one sense somewhat out of thier minds...they became so angry that they threw caution to the winds and blindly threw themselves at the enemy, and where they were awarded, there were many more who were not recognized.

These are my thoughts and opinions...some may disagree with them...but, in order to be recognizes for an action there had to be someone still living to put the person in for an award.

In WW II, there were actors who were concientious objectors, who would not take up a weapon. but, who went into the Medical Corps and were in the front lines.

To me, a Veteran is one who served in the Military,....he did not have to be in combat, as it took EVERYONE including civilians on the home front  to win the war..not just those in harm's way. The truth is, we as a country out produced them.

I hope I have answered your questions.

Jim :-)

James S. Peters Sr. T/Sgt
B-17 Flt Engr, 27 missions
99 BG, 348BS, 5th Wing, 15th AAF
Tortorella, (Foggia#2), Italy
My Tour was from 12/03/44-06/19/45
M/Sgt USAF (Retired)

Jim,
A very profound reply to the gentleman. I might add, (and not in Jest) "Thank God your still on the green side of the grass". you are quite an asset to this forum.
 
Fair Winds my friend, and may they always be following.  John 

Fair Winds and following seas.
John, (GM 3/C USS Frost DE 144)

Kin to LT. John W. Farnkopf
15th AAF, 52 FG, 4th FS; Madna, Italy
MIA 11/11/44 remains found 12/8/53

ORIGINAL: jpeters140


I don't think the average airmen or bomber crews were aware of any targets close to the concentration camps...if we had bombed the railway marshalling yards that were next to the concentration camps...on purpose, there would have been, I am sure,  many casualties among the victims in those camps.


Jim :-)

 
Jim,
As you know, it should be noted that in some cases we were required to only bomb visually to avoid sensitive sites near a target.  As an example, such a situation occured on Jan 1, 1945 for the 381st.  We were briefed for an aircraft plant at Magdeburg but it had to be only bombed if the target could be visually sighted.  We proceeded to the target.  We were on the bomb run  and receiving heavy flak when clouds obscured the target.   Our bomb bay doors were then closed and we proceeded to Kassel as a secondary target.  I don't remember what was near the plant that had to be avoided.
Some years ago I related this story to a vet's publication for inclusion and it was rejected by the editor because it was "too Hollywood".  He told me that essentially I was either delusional or lying, but in any case no outfit would purposefully undergo flak and not bomb to protect some non-strategic site.
Well we did.

Bob Gilbert
Ball Turret Gunner, Goldin crew
381st Bomb Gp., 533rd Bomb Sq.
US 8th Air Force

Bob...I never did get to Briefing, so I cannot say what was told to the pilots, bombarider and navigator...I suspect that the other gunners and myself were not told all of the  details of any mission.

As to only bombing visually, I agree....at least one of my missions had to be visual..it wasn't and we bombed an alternate target.

My point was that while the location of certain targets were known to the planners, it was not necessary for the flight crews to be aware of just what the targets consisted of;.... to be avoided by NOT bombing,unless it was visual, except in a general way.

Bob...Sometimes the "too hollywood"is closer to the actual truth, that even the hollywood group had trouble with it....many strange events occurred that are beyond belief, yet there is proof that they did happen.  

Jim :-)

James S. Peters Sr. T/Sgt
B-17 Flt Engr, 27 missions
99 BG, 348BS, 5th Wing, 15th AAF
Tortorella, (Foggia#2), Italy
My Tour was from 12/03/44-06/19/45
M/Sgt USAF (Retired)

At briefings we usually had alternate  as well as primary targets.If I remember correctly we never bombed through overcasts, if both targets were overcast we bombed targets of opportunity. In northern Italy it was usually Rimini  marshaling yards until it was declared off limits 

Jules Horowitz, B-17 pilot, 99th BG, 50 missions/sorties
My tour was from 7/19/43-2/13/44