some friends of mine have found a 20 mm rounds (projectile) in the woods near Vyskovec (crash place of one of B-17´s crashed on August 29th 1944,2ndBG,20thSQN,serial # 42-31885,MACR8099). No one knows where is is it from but on the round there´s written : NO.253 I A.M. U.S. I thought it could be from Lightning but I think there was no Lightning over our country on that day-anyway, we have another round from Lightning in our museum (P-38 ''Coon Dog'', crashed near Vinary, 17.12.1944, pilot Miles,bailed out) and on this round is written:NESCO 1942 20MM M2IAI. Also the type of these two rounds differs. Don´t you have some idea, which gun used this ammo NO.253 I A.M. U.S.?
Unfortunately I don´t have any picture of it yet but will add it asap.
Is it possible that some B-17G´s had a 20mm cannon aboard?????

Thanks

Roman

P.S. The original round from Lightning is brass and there´s a star around the igniter. The mysterious round has a sheet metal cartridge and on the ball there a brass guide ring. The ball has a blunt end.

Roman,
 
42-38090 340BS/97BG 'MISS WINDY CITY' was a B-17G which carried a 20 mm canon in her tail.
According to Roger Freeman's book The B-17 Flying Fortress Story, B-17's with these tail cannon were flown at the rear of formations, and the weapon was considered more of psychological than destructive value.'....
 
Paul

Associate member of the Awon
http://www.awon.org/
__________________

Fighters for Victory (357th FG)

Roman,

Field modification 20mm cannon installations on multi-engine aircraft was not uncommon (see attachment of a 20mm x 2 nose mount on a PBY-5A extracted from http://www.daveswarbirds.com/blackcat/photo4.htm).

I have also seen photographs of 20mm x 2 nose mounts on a B-26.

Based on your description of the shell case as being steel vs. brass I would suspect the round to be of non-US manufacture. As best I know, all US manufactured 20mm rounds had a brass case.

Take what you like and leave the rest....

Andy

[image]local://upfiles/10103/306FB5012327461D99A37875D49B86D6.jpg[/image]

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Roman,

Also, not all 20mm shells were fired by aircraft cannon - see
http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showthread.php?p=85514 for a ground mount 20 mm AT cannon.

Take what you like and leave the rest....

Andy

[image]local://upfiles/10103/9E9C40A50C1648E3A063FDC51E7B5181.jpg[/image]

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Thank you friends. Did they have to put the armament modification in A/C documentation? There´s no mention about this 20 mm cannon in MACR.

Roman

Paul, you might be right! This machine was at the end of the formation (pilot Prentice).

Roman

P.S. Don´t know why but embeding the picture failed so here´s the link to the websites with this picture http://www.2ndbombgroup.org/ and if you click on 20th squadron you´ll get the picture

Unfortunately I don´t have any picture of it yet but will add it asap.

In addition to a photograph, also post the case dimensions in millimeters.

The ammunition in question is likely not U.S. and, inasmuch as "AM" appears on the head stamp, it is probably of German origin. "AM" was the German ordnance code for Otto Eberhardt Patronenfabrik of the Gustloff Company, Wuppertal. The Germans used 2cm ammunition in various case lengths. An accurate measurement of this length in millimeters, as well as head diameter, is helpful in identification. Page two of http://www.denel.co.za/Landsystems/LS_LightOrdnance20x139Cannon.pdf illustrates an example of the required dimensions. Note that the 20mm X 139mm (case diameter and length) used for light anti-aircraft in wartime Germany is still being loaded commercially. The illustration may or may not be the round you have. It is strictly a dimensional example.

In the WWII U.S., cases of this size, intended for the Army, were frequently provided by specialized case makers, with final loading completed elsewhere. As a result, these cases were head stamp identified by model number. "M21A1" indicated brass cases conforming to the model number specifications. "B1" suffix after the model number indicated a steel case.

Incidentally, "NESCO" stood for "NATIONAL ENAMELING & STAMPING CO., Milwaukee, Wisconsin USA, a major wartime case maker. The star crimp that you mention was commonly used to steak primers (igniters) of WWII U.S. 20mm ammunition. -Adrian

Thank you Adrian, great info! I´ll call to my friend and ask him for the dimension.
By the way, I noted you´re from Pennsylvania. I´m in touch with former right waist gunner of another B-17G, that was shot down on the same day (Aug 29,1944). He visited me last year in summer and I visited him this year in March in New Jersey.What a great time!!! And he has a daughter in Pennsylvania.

Roman

Dear friends,

one friend of mine, Peter Kassak, sent me a set of pictures from crash sites taken on Aug. 29th, 1944. One of these pictures was probably taken near Vyskovec, where another friend of mine found 20 mm rounds in the woods. Please look at the picture attached. What kind of the gun, do you think, is there? M2 or 20 mm cannon???????

Thanks for all your answers

Roman
Zlin, Czech Republic


[image]local://upfiles/10844/92807EAE730F44C4A91B2CBF2955FC04.jpg[/image]

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Roman - the 97th BG , 15th AF had at least 5 B- 17s converted to a
20 MM Cannon in The tail , Spring , 1944 .
Mike

ORIGINAL: shooshoobaby

Roman - the 97th BG , 15th AF had at least 5 B- 17s converted to a
20 MM Cannon in The tail , Spring , 1944 .
Mike

Thank you Mike,

that sounds good. Was this modification always made on tail or sometime on upper turret or radioroom gun as well?
And back to my picture, is it M2 or 20 mm cannon? This machine belonged to 20th Sqdn,2ndBG,15thAF. B-17G #42-31885

Roman


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Mike...The  99th BG also had at least one B-17 with the 20mm gun in the tail.  Aircraft was 42-32046,
LIL ABNER, according to Dick Drain's 5th Wing History of Aircraft Assigned.

I suspect that the 97th and 99th weren't the only ones.

Jim  :-)

James S. Peters Sr. T/Sgt
B-17 Flt Engr, 27 missions
99 BG, 348BS, 5th Wing, 15th AAF
Tortorella, (Foggia#2), Italy
My Tour was from 12/03/44-06/19/45
M/Sgt USAF (Retired)

Roman
 
the gun that you have ringed looks like a Hispano HS404 20mm cannon. see picture.
the two guns behind it pointing to the sky are .50. MG
 
Roy

[image]local://upfiles/5038/8719FDA3632C4A248ED31DE8D2E7A588.gif[/image]

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42-31885

ORIGINAL: jpeters140

Mike...The  99th BG also had at least one B-17 with the 20mm gun in the tail.  Aircraft was 42-32046,
LIL ABNER, according to Dick Drain's 5th Wing History of Aircraft Assigned.

I suspect that the 97th and 99th weren't the only ones.

Jim  :-)

Jim,

also this machine 42-31885 (wreckage with the cannon on the picture) belonged to 99th BG before- Assigned to 99th BG Feb 44. Transfer to 2nd BG 28 Mar 44 after 14 missions. MIA Moravska Ostrova 29 Aug 44 on its 49th mission, total 63. Attacked by fighters, crashed near Vsetin. Merrill Prentice crew, Heath, McVey, Laux, Goldstein, Ellis, Balcerzak, Johnson, Petrey, Fitch. McVey POW, rest KIA. 
So it´s possible that this machine was modified at 99th...
Was there an obligation to put this modification into the airplane documentation? There´s no mention about the cannon aboard in the MACR...

Roman

Roman,

The 20mm field modification to '885 would have been recorded in the aircraft's maintenance log book - if for no other reason than weight and balance computation.

Andy

Roman :
 
Dick Drain shows 42-38090 97TH  BG, and 42-32046 99th BG as having the 20mm cannon in the tail., in addition to 42-31885.
 
Jim :-)

James S. Peters Sr. T/Sgt
B-17 Flt Engr, 27 missions
99 BG, 348BS, 5th Wing, 15th AAF
Tortorella, (Foggia#2), Italy
My Tour was from 12/03/44-06/19/45
M/Sgt USAF (Retired)

To all,
 
does exist any picture of this modification on B-17?
 
Roman

Seesul - There were several B - 17s modified with 20 MM cannon in Nose.
B - 17F # 42- 5897  " Round Trip Jack "  385th BG was Converted
2 Photos :  B - 17 Flying Fortress Story by Roger Freeman  Page 44
Mike

Roman,
 
Based upon the information Mike provided, I located the photographs that you requested and narrative (see attached) of '897 with the 20mm cannon mounted in the nose at http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/archive/index.php?t-35197.html
 
Andy



[image]local://upfiles/10103/173A2FC487484F71A4C2F4692F6B002B.jpg[/image]

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Thank you guys!
 
so it lookes like there are no pictures of B-17G with the 20 mm cannon in tail...
Anyway, does anyone of you know the way how/where to get a copy of the aircraft's maintenance log book?
 
Nice weekend
 
Roman