Gentlemen,           After having read the lively and passionate interplay in an earlier post entitled "Tactical Formation for Heavy Bombers,"  I didn't feel so bad about asking the age old question about the sparring between the B-17 and the B-24.  However, since  there was more than "the Mighty 8th," I have a question about the 14th.  One of the youngsters at work (mid fifties) had shown me an old photo of his father who had passed away when he was 2. He knew very little about his dad, but in the photo he was wearing a well worn A-2 with the "flying tiger" patch of the 14th.  He also said that his mom had mentioned that he was "part of a B-24 crew."  I'm still gathering bits of info.  My generic question:  Why do we see so little written on the role of the B-24 in the 14th or hear more about their exploits?  When one thinks of the "flying tigers," the visual usually goes to the P-40.  I've read little regarding  this theatre, and wonder if there are any veterans still out there who post. It is easy to read, but an honor to listen to a veteran who was there.       Steven

Best Regards!
Steven P. Puhl
Willow Run Historian (RET.)
"Home of 8685 Ford Built Liberators"
Life Member: Yankee Air Museum

Steven -
Groups in the 14th AF Honored the Flying Tigers by painting Shark Mouths on
their A/C and Wearing patches.
Shark Mouths:
B - 24s  308th BG
B- 25s  341st   BG
23d FG , 51st FGs
New Book: B - 24s Over China by Elmer Haynes. Stackpole Books
Mike
 

Mike,   Thanks for the info. on the new book! I am well aware of the use of the "shark's mouth" motif which was as famous and precursor of the "Jolly Roger" motif, both of which are very recognizable to the average reader or  "surfer" on the net.  I've read about the early involvment of the AVG in China, but will look at this new book.   Steven

Best Regards!
Steven P. Puhl
Willow Run Historian (RET.)
"Home of 8685 Ford Built Liberators"
Life Member: Yankee Air Museum

Mike         is this called "The B-24 in China--Gen Chennault's secret weapon in WWII" by Feuer and Haynes ---in the Stackpole Military History Series (2006) ?
There's a history of the 308th called "Chennault's Forgotten Warriors-the saga of the 308th Bomb Group in China" by Carroll Glines published by Schiffer Books in 1995.
They are both available on Amazon at reasonable prices.                     Nick

My grandfather was part of the 14th AAF. He was a pilot in the 118th TRS of the 23rd FG. He passed away almost twenty years ago.

I would guess the reason there is little written about the B24 is that the 14th started out as a fighter squadron (AVG 9/41-7/42). When the AVG disbanded, they became the China Air Task Force (CATF 7/42-3/43). The CATF had the 23rd FG (74, 75, 76th Fighter Sq), 16th FS, 9th PS, and added the 11th BS. Looks like it was still dominated by the fighters. The 14th was established in 3/43. Looking at the organizational chart, this is when the 14th really added its bomb squadrons. I would guess that by now, the P40 had become the face of the 14th.

I have over 60 journals that the 14th put out over the last 15 years. I also have two books that the association published. If you have a name or a squad # from your coworker, I 'll see what I can find.

Tex,   I hopefully will get some more info at work this week from my peer whose deceased father is the one about whom I am inquiring.  Your Journals sound great!    Steven

Best Regards!
Steven P. Puhl
Willow Run Historian (RET.)
"Home of 8685 Ford Built Liberators"
Life Member: Yankee Air Museum

Gentlemen,    Here is a start to followup on my original post.  The peer at work who was in the 14th was named JOHN (no middle initial) HORVATH, and unfortunately, he has not found anything except an old picture that he had.  At least this is a start.  I haven't done any archive searching yet!  Thanks!   Steven

Best Regards!
Steven P. Puhl
Willow Run Historian (RET.)
"Home of 8685 Ford Built Liberators"
Life Member: Yankee Air Museum

I found a John Horvath, Jr. Died 7/2/56. I have more info if this is him. Wife Thelma. Five kids: Barbara, Jacquline, John, Dawn, & Thomas.

14th AAF 23rd FG 118th TRS

Tex,  Per my PM, you have struck gold!  Hopefully further down the line I shall be able to share some more insights  for the sight.   Also, Mike and Nick, thanks for the tips as I was able to pick up the mentioned books on amazon.com.     Steven

Best Regards!
Steven P. Puhl
Willow Run Historian (RET.)
"Home of 8685 Ford Built Liberators"
Life Member: Yankee Air Museum

JOHN HORVATH, JR. served with the 75th Ftr. Sqdn., 23rd Ftr. Gp. in China. After training at Ft. Custer; Aerial Gunnery School at Kingman, AZ and Radio Operator School, Truax Field, Madison, WI, he was sent to Kunming, China. He flew daily flights as radio operator on four engine aircraft. He did regular pre flight and post flight inspections of radio equipment in aircraft; operated radio equipment using both radio telegraphy and radio telephoning while flying; operated and maintained .50 caliber machine guns mounted in bomber aircraft. He served from Dec. 22, 1941 to Jan. 18, 1946 and was discharged with the rank of staff sergeant. His awards and citations include: Asiatic Pacific Theater Ribbon w/Bronze Star, Good Conduct Medal, WWII Victory Medal and Lapel Button.

Horvath designed and built an automobile that is in the Henry Ford Museum in Dearborn, MI.

There is more family info that I have omitted.

This info came from the book "Chennault's Flying Tigers WWII 50th Anniversary." It was put together by the 14th AF Association and published by Turner Publishing in 1996. Someone knows something about John Horvath. It has to be a close family member given all the family info listed.

The thing that sticks out to me, is that it says he was with the 75th fighter squadron. I'm just a novice, but I don't think the 75th had any bombers. It also mentions four engine planes. Maybe he was involved with supplies.

Just some thoughts I'm throwing out there.

14th AAF 23rd FG 118th TRS

Here's the picture. The patch looks like that of the 75th.

[image]local://upfiles/9530/A6D3BB7BD9EF4110A281B290239077B0.jpg[/image]

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14th AAF 23rd FG 118th TRS

Attached are photos of the 14th AF Memorial at the Air Force Museum at Wright Patterson AFB, Dayton, Ohio.

Place of honor does go to the P-40, but all of the aircraft used by the 14th AF are included on the memorial.

Each of the earlier identities of the 14th are recognized on a different side of the memorial - AVG, CATF, etc.

4 more pictures to follow.
 
               Mark


[image]local://upfiles/7942/0D3269C67E814E278CC37628650B3174.jpg[/image]

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More pictures...


[image]local://upfiles/7942/500C4B30698A48FD8EF1AADEB41AEFD6.jpg[/image]
 
 

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P-40 over the Himalayas

[image]local://upfiles/7942/8DDEA0C486D74AFB80203586C0EC1336.jpg[/image]

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AVG...

[image]local://upfiles/7942/9D117E9664F04414B090CAF2275DA723.jpg[/image]

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China Air Task Force....

[image]local://upfiles/7942/FB91FDD09A2C470285F682198C86F758.jpg[/image]

Attached Image(s)

Steve,
 
My brother worked at Willow Run from the later part of 1941 until he entered the service in Februay 1943.  (He was on a B-17 in the 388th BG. 561st Sqd of the 8th).  He helped build the B-24s and I have a couple of pay stubs from Ford Motor.  He said he was the youngest foreman at age 19.  If this is of any interest, I can bring it with me when I fly on the Yankee Lady on the 18th.
 
Neale 

If you are interested in nose art pictures of the 308th BG B-24s look in the photo album section of this web site. I've placed quite a few there and have about 30 in my collection. Most of the pictures were taken by the 118th TRS photo section as bombers and other airplanes flew through Chengkung, the 118th TRS rear base area.

The current newsstand issue of Aviation History features the cover story of "Flying Tiger, Burning Bright," pages 24-31, by Bob Bergin along with various miscellaneous ads, artwork notes, (not so sure about the rather expensive collectible of John Wayne as a Flying Tiger pilot, page 64 ) etc. throughout relative to the Flying Tigers of the AVG and subsequently the AAF.  The article makes for very interesting and informative reading on the exploits of some of the AVG flyers.  The opening "two page" color photograph of AVG's 3rd Squadron in flight from 28MA42 is outstanding!  The recent interest (last year or so) in the Flying Tigers both as the AVG and then as a part of he AAF has spawned a revival of books and interest.  As this Thread indicates,  I had started with a foray into the subject and ended up finding out information about the "father of one of my peers" at GM WR (posts 8-11). Best Regards!  Steven

Best Regards!
Steven P. Puhl
Willow Run Historian (RET.)
"Home of 8685 Ford Built Liberators"
Life Member: Yankee Air Museum

Tex Longhorn


JOHN HORVATH, JR. served with the 75th Ftr. Sqdn., 23rd Ftr. Gp. in China. After training at Ft. Custer; Aerial Gunnery School at Kingman, AZ and Radio Operator School, Truax Field, Madison, WI, he was sent to Kunming, China. He flew daily flights as radio operator on four engine aircraft. He did regular pre flight and post flight inspections of radio equipment in aircraft; operated radio equipment using both radio telegraphy and radio telephoning while flying; operated and maintained .50 caliber machine guns mounted in bomber aircraft. He served from Dec. 22, 1941 to Jan. 18, 1946 and was discharged with the rank of staff sergeant. His awards and citations include: Asiatic Pacific Theater Ribbon w/Bronze Star, Good Conduct Medal, WWII Victory Medal and Lapel Button.
This info came from the book "Chennault's Flying Tigers WWII 50th Anniversary." It was put together by the 14th AF Association and published by Turner Publishing in 1996. Someone knows something about John Horvath. It has to be a close family member given all the family info listed.

The thing that sticks out to me, is that it says he was with the 75th fighter squadron. I'm just a novice, but I don't think the 75th had any bombers. It also mentions four engine planes. Maybe he was involved with supplies.

Just some thoughts I'm throwing out there.

I am currently reading the book Sharks Over China by Carl Molesworth (Castle 2001, reprinted from Brassey 1994, ISBN 0-7858-1401-9), and it made me start to think about a Thread I had written in June, 2007.  I was seeking information for a peer of mine at work, and, thanks to "Tex Longhorn," he had found the information I was seeking, but segments of his post (my highlights in bold blue), have brought up more questions.  According to the bio on John Horvath, he was associated with the 23 FG, 75 FS in Kunming but "flew in four engine A/C."  My assumption is that these would have been B-24D's arriving in May of 1943 as part of the 308 BG.  As the Libs began heavy bombardment deep into Japanese territories, they were supported by the "Sharks."  What I am trying to ascertain is the "connection between the bio and the historical facts."  I've talked with my peer, but he stated that there were very few records left in the family from his father and that my initial search was the most he had.  Is there anyone else who can shine some light on this or help me tie some more facts together?  (Note:  this thread started out about B-24's in the 14th AAF, and  maybe it should be relocated....Scott's call!)     Best Regards!  Steven

Best Regards!
Steven P. Puhl
Willow Run Historian (RET.)
"Home of 8685 Ford Built Liberators"
Life Member: Yankee Air Museum